Re: Rectifiers and regulators

well this thread has turned into a total shitshow, this el pollo is just blathering crazy nonsense. I cant figure out what the hell he is on about.

are you trying to run LED lights?

the coil you have is not a floated ground coil, its dual tapped. I just recently started experimenting with these and the china regulators designed for them, basically its like two coils in one, but they are both grounded. you can't hook them up to the two AC poles of the rectifier the way you probably think you can.

they are meant to be run with a dual-mode wiring schematic like this one:

1983 passport

the white and yellow wires are the two 'taps' on the lighting coil. one directly drives the headlight and the other one gets rectified to a battery. this way you have plenty of power for a ripping headlight and you can charge a battery without overpowering it.

its what was called a 'balanced' system, works great (reliable) with fewer components to fail... back in the day regulators were expensive and unreliable... but they don't work well with modified engines turning higher rpms or modifications to the electrical system.

if you post up your desired lighting/equipment and loads i can draw you a schematic, i haven't tried the capacitors yet, bought some for a project and ended up going with an SLA instead.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

got to laugh. op can wire the way I said but he bought the wrong parts because he did not do what I said in my first post.

its what was called a 'balanced' system, works great (reliable) with fewer components to fail... back in the day regulators were expensive and unreliable... but they don't work well with modified engines turning higher rpms or modifications to the electrical system.

i haven't tried the capacitors yet,

you are correct! try it you'll like it. 63v 22,000uf. they used half wave balanced force because the transistor had not been invented yet.

you still need to run half wave because the 2 stators are grounded. been running capacitors for 30 years. they used to be as big as a quart of oil. now they are really small. floating stator? are you kidding. you can not float a stator. you can rewire to full wave though.

like I said in order to know what parts to buy you need to test to see what wires are connected to what. you bought the wrong regulator. you need a half wave 12v regulator. 4 pin scoot type $7.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

OK that enough. I'm going to order the all in one unit. Thank you all for the help.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

el pollo can you post the schematic to make that reg/rec unit work

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

I used to post on electronics boards and liked to use a dead-simple utility called DIA.

http://dia-installer.de/download/index.html.en

Zero learning curve. Simple and clear.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /
fig10ok.png1_lightbox.png

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

I thought mopeds were meant to be fun.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

My company installs a lot of lighting control systems and I was thinking that we have had problems dimming track mounted LED retrofit bulbs from time to time as they will flicker. A while back I realized that the track head is feeding (through a transformer) 12VAC to these MR16 bulbs and that the dimming quality was directly related to the bulb manufacturer/model#. I knew the rectifier circuitry had to be built into the bulb so I took one apart and sure enough there was a little circuit board.

Fast forward to my current Moped project and it occurred to me last week that those little circuit boards could be a down and dirty (and cheap) way to get a tiny little rectifier anywhere you want a 12V LED bulb. I have tested the output from the board and sure enough, 12VAC in (from a TrailTech regulator) and 12VDC out.

The MR16 bulb form factor is entirely wrong for the extremely limited space I have to work with so I'm not sure of the solution for what bulb to use yet. The 50watt equivalent MR16 draws 7 watts so I'll stay in that range.

I will post photos once I get further assuming the whole thing pans out.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Anyways you should probably run a battery. Leds don’t like changes in load.

Why the fuck are we making this so confusing?

Use a scooter reg/rect

What’s up with the rectifier, I thought that was only for a battery set up?

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

I am trying to keep my older Peugeot 103 (1974) mostly stock and this mod can be easily reversed. The LEDs need 12VDC (no battery necessary) and I don't want to alter the extremely simple wiring or swap out the headlight assembly, but the lights are really too dim to be safe. I have found some e10 base, 6000K, 360 lumen bulbs that should work as a headlight bulb, and a smaller 100 lumen version for the tail light. I'll update as the experiment proceeds.

(The Philips LED MR16 cost about $4.50 USD.)

IMG_3626.jpg
IMG_3632.jpg

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

> Larry Baltz Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I am trying to keep my older Peugeot 103 (1974) mostly stock and this

> mod can be easily reversed. The LEDs need 12VDC (no battery necessary)

> and I don't want to alter the extremely simple wiring or swap out the

> headlight assembly, but the lights are really too dim to be safe. I have

> found some e10 base, 6000K, 360 lumen bulbs that should work as a

> headlight bulb, and a smaller 100 lumen version for the tail light. I'll

> update as the experiment proceeds.

>

> (The Philips LED MR16 cost about $4.50 USD.)

I’m so confused I thought this was a Puch Maxi we were talking about anyways. Dude treats sells a 12v coil and just buy a reg and call it done. Those m16 are just as good and are super fucking bright (blinding bright) Talk about simple. I have a led taillight/brake light and I just use a reg not rect and it’s been working fine!?

Fuck leds, they are great for Christmas light, flashlights, house lights/ work lights, light indicators.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

> Larry Baltz Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> My company installs a lot of lighting control systems and I was thinking

> that we have had problems dimming track mounted LED retrofit bulbs from

> time to time as they will flicker. A while back I realized that the

> track head is feeding (through a transformer) 12VAC to these MR16 bulbs

> and that the dimming quality was directly related to the bulb

> manufacturer/model#. I knew the rectifier circuitry had to be built into

> the bulb so I took one apart and sure enough there was a little circuit

> board.

>

> Fast forward to my current Moped project and it occurred to me last week

> that those little circuit boards could be a down and dirty (and cheap)

> way to get a tiny little rectifier anywhere you want a 12V LED bulb. I

> have tested the output from the board and sure enough, 12VAC in (from a

> TrailTech regulator) and 12VDC out.

>

> The MR16 bulb form factor is entirely wrong for the extremely limited

> space I have to work with so I'm not sure of the solution for what bulb

> to use yet. The 50watt equivalent MR16 draws 7 watts so I'll stay in

> that range.

>

> I will post photos once I get further assuming the whole thing pans out.

Good luck with impressing any of this upon anyone here. Ive been inserting this in just about every thread about lighting on this forum for a few years now. Even the part about cannibalizing the little driver board inside the mr16s for your choice of led smd or bulb.

Cue the tumbleweeds and cricket chorus. I dont git it.

"Thanks, really! But id just as soon reinvent this here wheel."(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Thanks Brad William. I'll post as I make progress.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

I am curious though. You say the mr16 is not compact enough for your extremely limited space. Is this for a headlight? It would be very very difficult to conceive of a more compactly engineered form, that alteady provides the beaming (spot) reflector ins so small a package as the, once again, already engineered mr16. All that it lacks, and its a serious lack, is the oblonged beam of a true road use headlamp. The newest automobile headlights are amazingly well engineered for this. You can stand in front of a well designed headlight today on a new model car and hardly notice the brightness. Bend your knees slowly lowering your gaze and at a very distinct point the beam is blinding. Theres a sharp horizontal demarcation that you dont get with a non street-designed bulb.

The off the shelf "landscape" mr16s that im using from home depot for moped headlights put out 1240 lumens straight from the lighting coil of my e50. Thats considerable. I worry that its enough to bother oncoming traffic, but not once in the past three years have i been flashed in irritation.

The 35 degree cone of my mr16 limits the amount of lumens i can pour down the roadway since the upper edge of the round beam can blind oncoming traffic, but its not that bad a limitation. Its easy to pull up to a big bright wall somewhere and adjust the beams optimally by hand.

Drinking too much beer tonight. Probably a bit overzealous on all this. Apologies all around.

Good night.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

I'll only vouch for Philips at this point. I tried a Feit mr16 at one point cuz it was a 4000k and cheaply on sale. Worked just fine except for a slightly annoying flicker. So between brands YMMV.

And yeah, in my limited experience with a few brands the quality of the integrated driver varies.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

> Brad William Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I am curious though. You say the mr16 is not compact enough for your

> extremely limited space. Is this for a headlight? It would be very

> very difficult to conceive of a more compactly engineered form, that

> alteady provides the beaming (spot) reflector ins so small a package as

> the, once again, already engineered mr16. All that it lacks, and its a

> serious lack, is the oblonged beam of a true road use headlamp. The

> newest automobile headlights are amazingly well engineered for this.

> You can stand in front of a well designed headlight today on a new model

> car and hardly notice the brightness. Bend your knees slowly lowering

> your gaze and at a very distinct point the beam is blinding. Theres a

> sharp horizontal demarcation that you dont get with a non

> street-designed bulb.

>

> The off the shelf "landscape" mr16s that im using from home depot for

> moped headlights put out 1240 lumens straight from the lighting coil of

> my e50. Thats considerable. I worry that its enough to bother oncoming

> traffic, but not once in the past three years have i been flashed in

> irritation.

>

> The 35 degree cone of my mr16 limits the amount of lumens i can pour

> down the roadway since the upper edge of the round beam can blind

> oncoming traffic, but its not that bad a limitation. Its easy to pull

> up to a big bright wall somewhere and adjust the beams optimally by

> hand.

>

> Drinking too much beer tonight. Probably a bit overzealous on all this.

> Apologies all around.

>

> Good night.

Here's a photo of the MR16 frame/heatsink on top of my existing headlight housing.

IMG_3634 (1).jpg

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Dirty30 Dillon /

MR16, as per their design specification are not vibration resistant, nor are they supposed to be utilized with a closed rear housing.

That said there are two different types of MR16 LED bulbs - new install ones meant to be used with full line voltage, and retrofit meant to be used in conjuction with the AC transformer commonly found inside the fixture.

The former, will not work really at all, but the second seems fine. My biggest argument against these are that they are not weather sealed, so if your bike sits outside or you rain ride it might cause a nice shocky failure.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

Brand

Philips Lighting

Model Number

8.5MR16/LED/840/F25/DIM 12V

Energy Used 8.5 Watts

Incandescent/Halogen Equivalent 75 Watts

Volts 12

Base GU5.3

Bulb Shape MR-16

Bulb Color Cool White

CRI 80

Color Temperature (Kelvin) 4000

Brightness (Lumens) 660

Center Beam Candle Power 3350

Bulb Finish Clear

Bulb Technology LED

Average Rated Life (hr) 25000

Operating Temperature (°F) -4 to 104

Beam Angle (°) 25

Length (in) 1.8

Diameter (in) 2

Warranty

3 year limited

Damp Location Yes

ENERGY STAR Certified Yes

ENERGY STAR Number 2281059

Dimmable Yes

Rated for Fully Enclosed Fixtures Yes

From Philips website.

Fully enclosed, check

Damp location, check

Any modern and reasonably reputable smd led and smd device contained within is going to engineered out of the gate to be far more vibration resistant than a white hot tungsten filament

Larry, im not as constrained by keeping things original, but i respect that completely. I have two mr16 mounted inside a 4 inch sched 30 black painted pvc cap where my bucket used to be. Looks like the old headlight from anywhere but up close.

Even a single 6.5 watt or larger mr16 will outperform the original 1156 filament but (on my peds anyway) there is sufficient wattage to run two.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Dirty30 Dillon /

Damp is not full on wet, these aren't IP rated.

This is really a smart, smart way to get around the lack of support for robust, LEDs for mopeds, just want everyone to be aware that it's not perfect. But if you could seal and pot this into headlight bucket, you might have something very stabile and usable on multiple bikes.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Silicone is pretty good potting and cheap to boot .

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

Ive been fiddling with half a dozen versions of these, feit and philips, for some years now, it extreme wet, obvious vibration, and obviously horribly ragged and variable current coming of a moped lighting coil unregulated. All i have is anecdotal, but honest. Not a single failure.

Only real weakness, again, is that the beam is circular instead of more properly spread along the horizon like a true road lamp should be. But if you find that its going to be hundreds of dollars, and not the price of a good cheeseburger like these are.

This is the one thats been burning brightly in my taillight for as many years now without a hickkup

The latest versions of these at home depot are potted on clear silicone soft rubber and you can see the little circuit board driver under the leds.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Thanks for the additional details Brad. Could you post a photo?

I'm looking into these very inexpensive Cree LEDs which seem very bright for the wattage needed and the dynamic LED heatsink/housing may suit my purposes. Also you can get optics to create the wider/flatter pattern you mentioned. 1000 lm @ 500 mA and 12V!

These are the kind of LEDs that are used in headlamps (the kind you wear) and flashlights. I have a headlamp with a similar LED and it is insanely bright with the 8 volt battery supply.

Cree XLamp

Housing/Heatsink

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

Brad William /

That is some really fun shit. Ive got a separate drawer in my workshop full of that stuff that i havent looked at in years. I let it go mostly out of frustration. Packages of cree leds, various styles of star boards, heat sink adhesives, driver boards, from digikey mouser et al, flashlight reflectors, more star boards to match those reflectors. Cannibalized headlights, flashlights, and personal head lamps. Its fun but the goal posts change so fast. And it can be Infuriating. If you thought nagging and naysaying was bad here at MA...

Heres a thread from the way-back-machine that im a little embarassed to read.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/24242

Id been trying to enlist a little advice from three or four sources/forums and getting smacked down at every turn with admonisments against experimenting with lights meant for the road. Non starter. If you read the link you'll see that i was reduced to lying about my intentions and still getting lectured.

So it goes.

I get it. But still.

Like i said earlier, it should HORRIFY any one of those hand wringing hall monitors of the internet that i am using landscape bulbs on the road, yet not a single time have i been flashed in irritation by oncoming traffic. In fact, in the six/seven years since that post trucks and suvs have only gotten taller and aftermarket highpowered "street legal" lamps have only gotten more powerful, that lately i have no fucking idea anymore if im supposed to be flashing oncoming traffic because its blinding me. Most times i just give up and look to the right.(edited)

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

I need to apologize to all of the people here that tried to help me and mostly to the person whom I talked to on the phone. I got pissed off and then shut down the brain well you know so to all of those I’m sorry and I hope you accept the apology and to show this I’m posting this

Click here

I know I’m using some of the wrong parts and I will need to ask for your help in getting this done. If the person I talked with is ever in town then please call again and maybe I’ll bake a cake.

Re: Rectifiers and regulators

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> well this thread has turned into a total shitshow, this el pollo is just

> blathering crazy nonsense. I cant figure out what the hell he is on

> about.

>

> are you trying to run LED lights?

>

> the coil you have is not a floated ground coil, its dual tapped. I just

> recently started experimenting with these and the china regulators

> designed for them, basically its like two coils in one, but they are

> both grounded. you can't hook them up to the two AC poles of the

> rectifier the way you probably think you can.

>

> they are meant to be run with a dual-mode wiring schematic like this

> one:

>

> 1983 passport

>

> the white and yellow wires are the two 'taps' on the lighting coil. one

> directly drives the headlight and the other one gets rectified to a

> battery. this way you have plenty of power for a ripping headlight and

> you can charge a battery without overpowering it.

>

another ma poster that knows nothing but posts like he knows. stator coils can be added by running them in series or running them through a rectifier.

in order to do the conversion the center tap is not used. use the headlight wire only. I've already posted a full wave ac to dc one wire solution.

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