NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Some more substantive content for interested minds. I have a feeling this one's going to attract a lot of trolls, so please take note of the disclaimers posted below the overview.

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Overview:

Using a wider (than stock) belt on the Urban is a popular way to increase the bikes maximum obtainable speed.* The general theory being that the increased width causes the belt to sit higher in the variator, which in turn gives a better drive/driven ratio. But the increased width also means that the belt may not be able to sink as low in the rear pulley (which would limit top speed). The steps below show one approach to mitigating that factor by increasing the amount by which the rear pulley face-plates can separate.

DISCLAIMER & NOTES:

- This has been mentioned on the forum before, and is a widely know trick in the scooter-world; I did not invent this technique in any way.

- This is potentially dangerous and/or unnecessary. If your belt sinks too low in the rear pulley, it could get stuck (belt too short). If the belt rides to high in the variator, it may come off entirely (belt too long). Know what belt-length you're working with before attempting this. NOT RECOMMENDED FOR STOCK BELTS.

- If you're engine is already maxing its power output (with a current setup), this may not do anything at all (except mess with RPMs - in a bad way).

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Step One:

Remove rear pulley. Disassemble (including collar, but not internal bearings). I took this opportunity to clean up some heavy pitting and rust; a few minutes in the lathe had things looking good.

20171031_000603.jpg

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Step Two:

With the movable face-plate separated, remove the bottom gasket. You will now want to decrease the distance between the bottom of the pin's travel-hole and the groove that holds the bottom gasket. Doing so will allow the movable face-plate to move farther away from fixed face-plate. IT'S IMPORTANT TO DO THIS EVENLY ON BOTH SIDES. I would also not recommend breaching the top of the groove for the bottom gasket.

20171102_003928.jpg

To make the modifications, I used a series of Dremal tools and files. Note that this is HARDENED STEEL, and may produce splinters during cutting; wear googles.

Step Three:

Clean the parts, apply lubricant, and reassemble. You may notice that the top of the movable shaft and it's collar now eclipse the top of the fixed shaft (i.e. the face that the clutch rests on, excluding the protruding threads). This must be brought level.

20171103_214436.jpg

Remove the seal from the movable shaft. You will need to both reduce the height of the uppermost rim (so that it sits flush with the fixed shaft when assembled) AND increase the depth of the groove that seal sits in accordingly. I used a lathe to do both, but this could also be done with a Dremal. I've also heard that the top of the seal can be shaved/sanded down, but have not attempted this.

Step Four:

Reassemble and ensure everything works properly. I installed a Stage6 clutch (which I can't speak well enough of), which is narrower than stock. If you are using stock (or something similar) IT MAY BE NECESSARY TO SHAVE THE REAR-FACING RIM OF THE MOVABLE-FACE. You MUST do this if it comes into contact with the clutch arms (and is highly recommended if it has the potential to touch any part of the clutch).

Results:

By increasing the travel distance by 1.2mm, I was able to sink my belt just over 5mm lower into the pulley. While not having road-tested this yet for actual speed, I'm sitting right at the top (maybe a mm over) of my variator, and just above the bottom of the pulley.

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Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

#CrazyWayne™ rocks. #CrazyWayne /

This Thread deserves to be trolled.

Why didn't you just get a cheap GY6 contra asembly from treats and install the Red Springs.

That's stage 6 clutch assembly set you back more money.

And your stuck with the straight slotted Factory contra sembly.

You need those slots to be at an angle so that the torque will make it downshift when you go up a hill or get back on the throttle after slowing.

Plus it gives the BX belt more range to travel up and down the cheeks

So yeah I'm calling you a doofus hey doofus want to race.

I know of one that'll do 50 plus and it has the stock gears in the rear box.

Put a yellow Contra spring in there.

A set of 3.2 Gr rollers.

And stick a 1 1/2 mm washer behind the sleeve on the front of the variator to widen the front cheeks to drop the belt down nice and low.

Flip that BX belt inside out and grind the fucking teeth off of it till just the radius is left.

And Wham-O it rips 50 an hauls ass off the line if you have the rest of your shit ported an set up golden.

But you're way behind the rest of us on that game.

And if you're really know your shit you taken do a partial notching on just three of the slots so the roller will fit into it by a couple millimeter s.

Then run heavier weights in those 3.

With 2.2gr in the remaining 3 slots.

That way it won't shift out till that last little bit when you're at the top of the pipe.

And it will definitely push you over 53 even with a little sha on there.

But you don't listen to anybody so ignore everything I posted above and do whatever the fuck you're going to do so we can laugh are fucking ass off and troll you.

CW(edited)

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Ok, lets tackle the first troll. Main issue: missing the point. Also assumes since I didn't list out every possible mod under the sun, that I (probably everyone else) has never heard of these wonders. But I do appreciate the lengthy, and well though out reply, so I'll be polite and respond in kind.

> That's stage 6 clutch assembly set you back more money.

Yes, but not that much actually, I think $91. It allows you to adjust spring tension and do so without removing the clutch. Necessary? Prob not. Nice to have, and only one where you can do it? Yes. Really, I just wanted it - I even have an unused clutch - but I've made life choices to ensure that that kind of setback is un-fuking-noticable to me (asshole comment yes - hate me if you want - I don't hate you).

> And your stuck with the straight slotted Factory contra sembly.

As opposed to what? The NU is straight by default, are you suggesting that I use the last 1.2 mm to create an angle? Or cut an entirely new angled path? That's not only a lot of work, but there are differing opinions on the gains to be had (when you could also stiffen the spring). But basically, the work didn't seem fun. If I really wanted the gains, again, I'd buy an aftermarket. If the shift is too hard to balance, maybe I'll open it back up and take another shot, which brings me to my next point...

> You need those slots to be at an angle so that the torque will make it downshift when you go up a hill or get back on the throttle after slowing.

Not that I don't understand what your saying, but it's not entirely accurate. You assume that the contra will not be able to resist the force generated by the var weights at RPM for a period long enough to establish the momentum needed to comfortably shift to a higher gear-ratio. Theoretically, if you were really talented, it would be possible to lay on the throttle just enough to hold a semi-variated state. Finally, more than a few stock bikes have straight cuts. You're argument seems to be against the stock bike, not with my modification. Take it up with Honda. Let em know I'd actually prefer they did cut at angels.

Also, there's fault in your understanding of the mechanics, or terms used. I know you're smart, so I'll assume the latter. While there is "torque" due to the face-plate rotating with the groves (on pulleys with slant cuts) this is both negligible and independent of the system. The contra spring forces the downshift. It is the only element providing that force. The slant cuts provide resistance to (all) shifting in 2 ways: Friction + application of an opposing vector force (i.e. the angled wall pushes against movement). When downshifting those forces are overcome easily and suddenly (by the force of the spring when the variation drops off); when accelerating, it may be more noticeable. Therefore, slants do not "make it downshift when you go uphill," they impede the upshift, so to speak (i.e. "get back on the throttle after slowing"). Same difference you might say. I agree. But for that matter, the slant doesn't really matter at all, since the entire force comes from the spring. What the slants WILL DO - and wait for it, you get some credit here - if make it EASIER to control that force. IF you live in a hilly-area, then there might be benefits to increasing the force required (maybe even making it progressive by altering the angle of the slant), and thus increasing the range (again, for lack of a better term) that in which a torque-heave ratio will exist. I do not live in such an area, and have not have these problems in the past.

> Plus it gives the BX belt more range to travel up and down the cheeks

Just to be clear, are you saying that the slanted cuts will provide more belt range (i.e. more separation of the faces)? I hope not, 'cuz that's just retardedly wrong. The amount of belt rage is ONLY affected by how far the faces separate, which is ONLY dependent on the depth of the cuts, not the angle leading up to / away from them.

> So yeah I'm calling you a doofus hey doofus want to race.

Ok, be a dick. I'm not building a race bike. If I was, I'd have just bought an aftermarket torque driver, tons of other shit, and left the lathe alone entirely.

> I know of one that'll do 50 plus and it has the stock gears in the rear box.

Umm, ok. Congratulations?

> Put a yellow Contra spring in there.

I did to start. I choose not to go red right away out of preference; sometimes I like it better with yellow.

> A set of 3.2 Gr rollers.

>And stick a 1 1/2 mm washer behind the sleeve on the front of the variator to widen the front cheeks to drop the belt down nice and low.

Oh wow! changing the roller weights??? I mean, I can lathe, mill, weld like no other, but holy shit, I've never heard of that trick!

I actually have tried adding the washer - I honestly didn't notice the difference. I even colored in the var to see where the belt rode up; the evidence said I was going faster, but I didn't feel it, so took it out and haven't tried it again since. Might give it another go, I dunno.

>Flip that BX belt inside out and grind the fucking teeth off of it till just the radius is left.

That I have NOT tried. I thought ppl were joking about that. Whatta you get? 10 miles before it's crapped out and totally fuk'd? Wouldn't that slip like crazy? Also, I'm not using the BX, got a few belt with width between BX and AX of different lengths - I think Treats sells one of 'em.

>And Wham-O it rips 50 an hauls ass off the line if you have the rest of your shit ported an set up golden.

Yes, with other modifications, you can achieve 50. I've done it myself. Hell, with a Mikuni and decent exhaust, an unported stock will get you just over 40. But this thread isn't about other modifications - or even the comparative gains from this one for that matter - it's about what you can do. How does a moped enthusiast not get that?

> But you're way behind the rest of us on that game.

How do have any idea what the rest of my "game" is? Go ahead, let me know. Reply to this and detail out the rest of my setup Miss Cleopatra.

> And if you're really know your shit you taken do a partial notching on just three of the slots so the roller will fit into it by a couple millimeter s.

You mean the variator now? That has it's benefits, but also out of scope.

> Then run heavier weights in those 3.

> With 2.2gr in the remaining 3 slots.

> That way it won't shift out till that last little bit when you're at the top of the pipe.

> And it will definitely push you over 53 even with a little sha on there.

OK, didn't know that one; that's actually pretty awesome. Will try. (Still out of scope)

> But you don't listen to anybody so ignore everything I posted above and do whatever the fuck you're going to do so we can laugh are fucking ass off and troll you.

Umm, have we ever spoken before? Please, provide examples of not listening. Or is this some kind of passive attempt at preemptive retort (against those who don't listen)? If you find yourself making a lot of those, it's probably 'cuz you come off as a dick, which doesn't bother me, but is a shame 'cuz aside from the one misstatement of physics, your ideas are not bad.

> CW

Kwak is Wayne??!!! Finkle is Einhorn!?? Einhorn is Finkle!

But really, I didn't put that together 'till just now. I'm flattered in a way.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

I dig this thread

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

#CrazyWayne™ rocks. #CrazyWayne /

You fucking crack me up dude but a week ago you posted to threads one how do I remove the rear clutch assembly nut on my Nu 50.

You even had the Topic in the other thread covering is exact same stage 6 clutch assembly when you're asking which one do i get and how do i get the fucking nut off.

You're pretty much ignored everything suggested to you andeven argued some on how to use a damn strap wrench to get the nut off.

https://mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?7,4148601

And another thread on how do I remove the nut from the crankshaft to remove the variator.

Now you're trying to school everybody on how to modify the rear Contra pulley assembly.

https://mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?6,4148875

I don't think you have the understanding to Grass what I tried to post above to help you but whatever the fuck man you're going to do what you're going to do so do The Addams Family thing and entertain us I need a good laugh

Where's that damn microwave popcorn oh there it is.(edited)

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Both are consistant; in the top post the pia / gy6 is a ref to the model posted above (in fact, theres a pic of the very same cluth)! Which btw, opinions aside, was the only actual answer to the OPs question (go ahead - reread the title). "Clutch Stage6 Torque Control for Honda NU50/ Urban Express...anyone know which clutch I should be getting for a Honda NU50 - I've read the description but don't see anything that says it will fit a NU50...." followed by a link to 3 STAGE6 products ((this one). Basically asking "out of the 3 products i've provided, which are the three available stage6 clutchs, which one is compatable with the honda nu50?" Get it now? I'd say I was the ONLY one listening, as I'm the ONLY one who actually answered his original question. Also, for the record, NOTHING in that thread was suggested to, or at, me (I did not pose any questions), and did not mention a strap wrench. ...And if I did, I doubt I'd "argue some on how to use a damn strap wrench" since this is my preferred method when the air comp is off.

Everything in the other post is also correct. Not trying to "school" anyone, but clearly OP didn't get the basics. If you can grasp the physics, you can answer most of ur own questions. Also didn't refute anyones points (or even ref another post) in this either for the record. More of a non sequiter than anything else; I guess if you wanna fault ppl for that, go ahead...

Most ppl can easily "Grass" ur shit (although admitadly, I initailly misundersrood your particular washer trick - so no, havent tried that, would'n increasing var spacing reduce top speed???, but i digress), and Id still rank advanced abstract algebra as slightly above anything you've proffered so far.

And what about explaining how in you're not boarderline retardedly wrong (so the angle impacts the max separation how again??? interested in that one, please draw a picture). And do tell, what's the rest of MY setup like?

But I'd drop all that silly shit, as A. it's pointless, and B. I'd rather you answer the questions Im actually curiouse about. Namely the belt flipping; those were for real.

I value your trolling, but don't grasp at straws. Just poor form. And Im kinda dissapointed tbh; someone posted that you were a well of original ideas, or something to that effect, but this is really far off the mark if you cant even keep pace. :((edited)

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Hmm, rereading this and feeling that Im coming off as a dick, and that CW is offering ideas (in his way); somehow that led to the Adams Family... So lets get back on track.

Disregarding everything else that's unrelated to the rear (driven) pulley (including the clutch and its price), how big is the benifit to switching to angled slots (from stock str8) IF i have no hills, current issues with accel., and pleanty of power from displacement alone? While this has been addressed generally in the past, there seems to be no consensus. Please assume everybody has an equally advanced understanding, and awe us with your knowledge (open to all btw, not just CW). Theoretical explanation and/or experiance preferred.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

A straight slot may perform on a single pull, but the angled slot serves to allow different mechanical effort along with the spring over the weights. This can provide extra force to return to initial travel when you want to accelerate, climb a hill etc. Also a lot depends on the front pulley also. It's ramp angle and size can cause undesirable "non linear" travel as the weights move and the belt rides to the outside of the pulley. This can create a sort of runaway action which will surpass the optimal gear ratio for the speed of the bike and engine rpm. Angling the torque driver can fine tune that action.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Yes, interesting; so the extra force would act to keep the momentum of the system in check. And while the "runaway" effect isn't too noticable with the unported stock, it probably will be with a ported stroker.

Thanks for the advice. I'll do some research on angles and take a stab at cutting them next weekend.

I still have the stock var on btw; I assume that, in theory, the same could be accomplished by decreasing the slant of the variator face / face plate, by using even lighter weights, and/or by using a less aggressive ramp plate - but these seem like options that would harm top speed & accel too much to be viable. Is this correct?

Thanks agian dude.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

A belated you're welcome and a bump for the noobs

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Hahaha, you so crazy.

Also, I did wind up cutting the angled guides, and am pleased with the results. I did a very quick comparison on my bolt-on-upgrades bike, and it does seem a tad easier to keep the angled-pulley in the band. The most notable difference (as one might expect) comes when you blast from dead-stop to balls-upon-walls (a mighty 40mph on my beater-bike :D ), then settle down to cruise; definitely less of the CVT-gone-wild feel near the top, and on deceleration. Not that it's unmanageable sans the angle - though it sounds a lot easier on the engine than the straight-cut.

Things to note if you try this: 1. The steel that needs to be cut is hardened; take your time. Wear gloves. Clean up using the magnet / sheet-o-paper trick. 2. Precision is important (i.e. the guides must always be parallel); I used a lathe to trace the pattern before cutting with a drill press + rotary tool. If you don't have access to such equipment, maybe look at the GY6 option CW mentioned above (in fact, look at it regardless - it'll get you to the same place with a lot less pain).

Finally, for those interested, I used a consistent (i.e. straight) 38 degree angle. Cutting a dual-angle set-up was tempting, but didn't want to risk error. I also angled the cuts in the same direction as Malossi and every other manufacturer (i.e. so that the movable face turns in the direction of motion when contracting). I'm curious as to whether this makes a difference.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Well the sweet thing about the angles in the slot is there as you hit full Throttle to produce more torque to the belt the moving pulley cheek will rotate the moving shive against the angled slot the angled slot assist the spring of the contra giving you the effect of having a stiffer stronger spring under heavy loads / Throttle this makes the bike downshift getting you into the Prime of the power band.

But we're not applying for throttle and doing a normal drive you don't end up having to have your RPM going to the moon just trying to cruise through the neighborhood.

So you will get better fuel efficiency but if you need the power it's there if you live in a area with a lot of hills it comes in really nice because it will automatically downshift increasing the torque for whatever you're riding up

If you ever make it to Oakland one of the best Hills to test out the set-up is called snake Road it it's so steep that you're climbing one foot up for every 4 feet you're going forward.

And various with lots of twisty turns and even some steeper sections.

When you get your shit dialled in to it just holds you in the peak of the power band you have to back off of it because the front end starts to come up when you're almost riding a wheelie around the turns up the hill it's pretty fucking awesome it's one of my favourite rides in Oakland.

So if you live in some place like Kansas where everything is as flat as the top of your head you will be fine with the stock groove but if you're somebody who likes to be cruising and nail the throttle and have the rpms come up so you can make a fast pass on somebody or you ride in a lot of steep hilly areas you definitely want 100000 present want tingled slots/guides.

But when you're coming out of a turn in hit the throttle it will also downshift giving you a better shot of Speed coming out of a turn.

Hey Alex we need to talk.

CW(edited)

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Is there a optimal angle to cut the angled slots? Or does it just depend on the setup.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

> - Joe - Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Is there a optimal angle to cut the angled slots? Or does it just depend

> on the setup.

The contra spring can fine-tune its effect if the spring is stiffer you will have a touch less downshifting effect do to it pushing harder against the angle and the belt being Tighter creating a greater purchase in the Pully

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Shawn Manthey /

Does anyone know what modifications need to be done to the gy6 clutch assembly that treats offers in order for it to work on an urban? Trying to decide if that's the easier route or modifying the stock one.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Captain Janeway /

Assuming you just want to get bike running well, buy GY6 clutch and put on yellow or red springs. Slap it on, good to go. Easy Peasy.

You won't find any stiffer springs to go on that stock setup. You'll have to spend time lightening shoes or whatever depending on what you're doing. I didn't see your setup.

The GY6 is the easy way to go if you have a basically stock bike or even one with a kit and pipes. I have them on all three of my bikes

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

If you want to be able to tune again perfect get this it's for jog and and zuma it gives you three different angles of slots to tune with

https://scooterswapshop.com/products/ncy-zuma-jog-secondary-pulley-slider

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Shawn Manthey /

Will that work on an urban express?

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

hahahaha

(...yes - most everything in this post will)

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Captain Janeway /

> Neil Rayborn Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081125.gif

lol! Boy I'm glad you like me.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

> Captain Janeway Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Neil Rayborn Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081125.gif

>

> lol! Boy I'm glad you like me.

Well a course captain you enjoy a little slap here in there anyway.

And yes I'm sipping a margarita right now.

CW

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Shawn Manthey /

Whats the point in modifying the stock one if an aftermarket one with a number of slots is available at a decent price? Maybe I'm just simple minded.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

> Shawn Manthey Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Whats the point in modifying the stock one if an aftermarket one with a

> number of slots is available at a decent price? Maybe I'm just simple

> minded.

Some folks have the skills and the tools to modify parts.

Others are just simple minded and ask redundant questions.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Captain Janeway /

> Neil Rayborn Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Captain Janeway Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > > Neil Rayborn Wrote:

>

> >

>

> > > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> >

>

> > > https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081125.gif

>

> >

>

> > lol! Boy I'm glad you like me.

>

> Well a course captain you enjoy a little slap here in there anyway.

>

> And yes I'm sipping a margarita right now.

>

> CW

Next time you're down this way cocktails baby

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

> Shawn Manthey Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Whats the point in modifying the stock one if an aftermarket one with a

> number of slots is available at a decent price? Maybe I'm just simple

> minded.

This was indirectly addressed in the discussion between CW and I above; the short answer is that there is no point. The GY6 is tried and true, as are the many other suggestions. While wrenching in itself isn't some esoteric mystery, the motivation to do so can be.

I use this hobby as a practical means for honing machining skills. I find thrill in the chase, and my ideas do not necessarily follow the path of least resistance (e.g. the dio-reed-block adapter - just buy the TrickMetric + MLM setup if you crave instant gratification).

Some just want to "slap a kit on it" and be done - and that's fine; read the wikis, search the forums, write down your log-in info, enjoy your stay at hotel-du-MA. Others enjoy the means as much, if not more than, the ends, and will start living out of said hotel. Try some half-baked idea. Make that part fit. Inspire us. Squat in that empty room.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

Alex I was really impressed by the fact that you actually cut those angled slots I was kind of expecting you to fuck up and break a lot of bits trying to cut that hard-ass Steel.

I think you're really interesting thing to do would be to cut those pin guide slots in somewhat of a crescent moon hook cut into the end of the angle so that you get a really Snappy downshift and if you're wide open throttle you have to back off for a second for it to shift out I think that would be the golden set up having up dual angled slot.

Alex I have a spare Contra from a cameo and I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind cutting a second steeper angle In it.

We will talk later we both have some time I'm coming real close to having a working fore stage system I've got to make a couple of justments so I've got cut it in half again and welded move things over quarter inch but it's working and it's wicked as hell.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

> Neil Rayborn Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Alex I was really impressed by the fact that you actually cut those

> angled slots I was kind of expecting you to fuck up and break a lot of

> bits trying to cut that hard-ass Steel.

Haha, thanks. But really - yeah, this was a bit more difficult than I initially expected, and some bits, unfortunately, did not make it home after battle :'(

> I think you're really interesting thing to do would be to cut those pin

> guide slots in somewhat of a crescent moon hook cut into the end of the

> angle so that you get a really Snappy downshift and if you're wide open

> throttle you have to back off for a second for it to shift out I think

> that would be the golden set up having up dual angled slot.

Agreed. In fact, I was considering doing this up until I had the first few mm cleared; then I lost appetite for adding complexity to my first shot.

> Alex I have a spare Contra from a cameo and I'm wondering if you

> u wouldn't mind cutting a second steeper angle In it.

Sure, always down for a challenge. Next few months are kinda busy, but I'm happy to ebb away at it in my down time (as long as you're not in a rush).

> We will talk later we both have some time I'm coming real close to

> having a working fore stage system I've got to make a couple of

> justments so I've got cut it in half again and welded move things over

> quarter inch but it's working and it's wicked as hell.

Nice dude.

Re: NU50: Modification of the Rear Pully

I have a lot of Mill bits I picked up in an auction just let me know what style you did and I will send some along with the part it will destroy them take care.

And by the way the MA Hotel move me to another room so they can fix the leak in the shower so I'm in room 420 cough cough.

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