Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> Thomas TPRF Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Is there an advantage of a thermoresister over a thermocouple?

Accuracy. The resistor is fixed where thermocouples work on a differential. So thermocouples rely much more on calibration for accuracy. That being said thermocouples are the probe of choice, being cheap and having an extremely wide operating range depending on which type you choose. I don't think you can even get a thermistor that operates at head temps. Thermocouples are good from hot water to hot lava.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> JBOT Admin Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> You can't read I guess.

>

> Good luck and god speed

I was just surprised by the pictures & I completely missed what you said, but yea I would of been more carful about takening it apart. Yea ur right I can't read

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Thomas TPRF Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Is there an advantage of a thermoresister over a thermocouple?

>

> Accuracy. The resistor is fixed where thermocouples work on a

> differential. So thermocouples rely much more on calibration for

> accuracy. That being said thermocouples are the probe of choice, being

> cheap and having an extremely wide operating range depending on which

> type you choose. I don't think you can even get a thermistor that

> operates at head temps. Thermocouples are good from hot water to hot

> lava.

I’m pretty sure the trail tech is a thermistor...

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> Rocco Taco Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > JBOT Admin Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > You can't read I guess.

>

> >

>

> > Good luck and god speed

>

> I was just surprised by the pictures & I completely missed what you

> said, but yea I would of been more carful about takening it apart. Yea

> ur right I can't read

You can't be more careful.

I did all the tricks to get it apart, heat, time, solvents. Nothing did jack shit. So I got a lil apey. That glue is crazy.

The tto is designed to be destroyed if you try to open it at the seam.

Period

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> frank dadog Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Thomas TPRF Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Is there an advantage of a thermoresister over a thermocouple?

>

> Accuracy. The resistor is fixed where thermocouples work on a

> differential. So thermocouples rely much more on calibration for

> accuracy. That being said thermocouples are the probe of choice, being

> cheap and having an extremely wide operating range depending on which

> type you choose. I don't think you can even get a thermistor that

> operates at head temps. Thermocouples are good from hot water to hot

> lava.

no way, any thermocouple will read exactly the same as long as it's made properly and the alloying is correct.

true that thermistors wont go to head temps, they also dont have the range. theyre really accurate but not over a wide range. the third option and probably actually what the trailtech's using are RTD which measures temperature dependent resistance changes. it would also explain why they use ultra tiny wires. probably some precious metal or PM alloy?

but thermocouples are a temperature dependent voltage created by two metals in contact, there's lotsa things that can make em go off in readings, especially changes to resistance in the wiring, or external voltages (I expect however that the erratic readings when running are from inductance from the plug wire rather than part of the spark charge)

they all get thrown off with varying lengths of wire, but thermocouples least so.

I actually don't know a whole lot about thermocouples but i use them for tons of stuff almost daily, i even got a chart of millivolt vs temperature for different thermocouple types as a ready reference taped to the wall next to my desk.

I once tried to use a thermocouple welder to reconnect 2 leads of the end of a trailtech, and it didnt work at all, so that'd also support it being a 2 wire RTD type of thing.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

Still almost whichever you use it's linear response (except true thermistors) but you don't need a temp gauge to read exact temps, only "too hot", and "how close to too hot".

Like 400 degree head temps is an arbitrary number. the engines not at 400, it's not seizing because the pistons at 420 F. 400 is just the reading we get from heat soaked through to the spark plug and measured by the sensor we all use, so it's consistent between our shared experiences.

but again there's nothing magic about the number 400. or whatever it is you chose to stay under.

as long as your sensor is consistent and you know that whatever number your sensor reads when a tto would read 400, you're just as well off...

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

The trail tech wires solder easily enough..

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

yea I mean like thermocouple weld - if you were going to make a thermocouple you just need the two wires of the right alloy and you zap em together and they'll read a correct temp, but if you soldered em then your alloying's all off, and the connection between the two isn't gonna be legit, you def wouldn't get a valid microvoltage signal

but if it was just the wires downstream or upstream, not the contact point between the two metals, solder should work fine, maybe tiny offset from resistance differences but totally negligible. but I think trailtechs and RTD where its got a tny lil resistance wire or something and so as long as your solder's effectively zero resistance it wont care

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

This one has a replaceable battery. Found a cheaper one with free shipping on Fleabay.

https://www.denniskirk.com/hardline/thermometer-gauge-th-1.p4000845.prd/4000845.sku

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

https://www.doscycles.com/collections/all-items/products/dos-digital-20-572-f-temperature-gauge

B324AFE4-7353-4807-9BBE-1835F968E09B.jpeg

Y’all sleeping on DOS. They have one for $40 with a replaceable battery and another one with with hours and RPMs for $60.

https://www.doscycles.com/collections/all-items/products/dos-digital-tuner-special

2A7877C2-E80B-42E1-8DC1-8919475AE63B.jpeg

But I am definitely all for cutting up the ones I have and trying to reuse them.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

todd amundson /

This fancy POS thermocouple I bought because of the topic don’t even send a signal!

Am I dumb?

image.jpg

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

Maybe it's defective.

Pull the thermo guyee out of the HF meat thermometer and pot it into a 14mm copper ring connector. Boom

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

todd amundson /

Nah dude. All three I bought aren’t working. But as soon as I touch the original trail tech thermocouple to the cut harness, the shit wakes up.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> todd amundson Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Nah dude. All three I bought aren’t working. But as soon as I touch the

> original trail tech thermocouple to the cut harness, the shit wakes up.

That is because you cant wire a thermocouple to a trail tech, it was stated earlier the trail-tech uses a thermistor. It's just a resistor. It changes resistance with temperature and the display of the trail tech is simply measuring the ohms and converting it to a displayed temp in C of F.

There are basically two types of thermistors:

NTC = resistance goes up when temp goes down (vice versa)

PTC = resistance goes up when temp goes up (vice versa)

A thermocouple actually produces it's own temperature dependent voltage, so you would need a display that can read this type of sensor. Totally different than the thermistor.

Most thermistors are rated at X amount of ohms at room temp. So a "10k sensor" is 10,000 ohms @ 70F. You can use a multimeter to measure the resistance of the trail tech sensor and then cross that over to some other sensor that might be interchangeable. It is probably a common type of thermistor and Trail tech just has that copper ring put on so it can be mounted to a spark plug.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> Max LGN Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > todd amundson Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Nah dude. All three I bought aren’t working. But as soon as I touch

> the

>

> > original trail tech thermocouple to the cut harness, the shit wakes

> up.

>

> That is because you cant wire a thermocouple to a trail tech, it was

> stated earlier the trail-tech uses a thermistor. It's just a resistor.

> It changes resistance with temperature and the display of the trail tech

> is simply measuring the ohms and converting it to a displayed temp in C

> of F.

>

> There are basically two types of thermistors:

>

> NTC = resistance goes up when temp goes down (vice versa)

>

> PTC = resistance goes up when temp goes up (vice versa)

>

> A thermocouple actually produces it's own temperature dependent voltage,

> so you would need a display that can read this type of sensor. Totally

> different than the thermistor.

>

> Most thermistors are rated at X amount of ohms at room temp. So a "10k

> sensor" is 10,000 ohms @ 70F. You can use a multimeter to measure the

> resistance of the trail tech sensor and then cross that over to some

> other sensor that might be interchangeable. It is probably a common type

> of thermistor and Trail tech just has that copper ring put on so it can

> be mounted to a spark plug.

I was waiting for you to chime in. figured you'd know this stuff well

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

eh, it's only because I worked as a technician for a company that made all sorts of temp sensors, so I learned way more than I wanted to.

I also hate the "disposable" trail techs design so I am all for finding ways of modifying them or extending their life. Maybe if they were 5 bucks, but 40 dollars for a throw away device is dumb!

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

Got it up to 405 today. Looks like no hard temp limit on the HF meat thermometer.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

BBBBBB bump!

After bitching about a dead Trail Tech temp sensor to Jbot he reminded me of this and I finally did it myself. Maybe more people haven't done it because they dont realize how simple this really is. You solder in the 2 wires and its done.

Buy this at Harbor Freight, its less than $6.

20201205_2156331.jpg

On the right side there is a little relief to slip a screwdriver in and pop open the case.

20201205_2203191.jpg

Clip those wires, pull out the probe, and solder in the connector from your old, dead, piece of shit, non replaceable battery, son of a bitch trail tech.

20201206_1740201.jpg

It was reading erratic with a resistor cap and regular plug, so I tried a resistor plug with a non-resistor cap, and it works great. Odd little detail but thats what works.

That's really it. Its that simple. (edited)

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

At the risk of making this seem more complicated than it really is, here is a little more detail specific to my own install.

I drilled a hole off to the side of the probe hole to run the wires through, and used the existing hole as the mount point. The plastic around the probe hole was also cut down be flush with the support webbing to give the mounting screw more clearance. That way it wouldn't interfere with the battery and board.

20201206_1720301.jpg

A tip for soldering the tiny wires from the trail tech; separate the copper from the fiber and cut the fiber off. If you leave the fibers in place they melt and fuck up the solder wetting in.

20201206_1802531.jpg

I wrapped both wires with a tiny bit of electrical tape and then slipped over the heat shrink tube.

20201206_1745431.jpg

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

I ran thicker wires out of the bottom center then cable tie it to a wire bundle or cable housing.

So the thing is shock mounted! Hell yuuuuuuhhhh

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

Drilled and tapped my handlebars for a small 6-32 machine screw and attached the base.

20201206_1825151.jpg

I wanted the temp display up somewhere visible and figured putting it near the on/off switch for the bike would help me remember to turn off the display.

20201206_1834541.jpg

Probably wont have many miles on this till next summer. For now the temp seems to read and climb correctly. Sweeeeet.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

Yeah you need to seperate the power supply for this from your bikes power supply for electrical reasons.

You can make an isolation circuit or just use a battery (battery is easy)

Maybe I'll get one of these if I ever finish my hydro Minarelli build

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

Lol it already runs on a battery

Rf thru the air is the issue not wired electronic noise (edited)

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin /

Nah it's not RF it's the lack of a clean reference

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

I don’t think you have any idea what’s going on here. It’s like you’re a bot or something

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

Anyone else use the Hardline TH-1 digital thermometer w replaceable battery? (edited)

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> Lazy Pedaler Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> This one has a replaceable battery. Found a cheaper one with free

> shipping on Fleabay.

>

> https://www.denniskirk.com/hardline/thermometer-gauge-th-1.p4000845.prd/4000845.sku

How’d this one work out for you?

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

I mean, you could easily use an isolated DC/DC converter. You'd need to drop down from 6V or 12V (assuming you already rectify and regulate) to probably 3.3V anyway.

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

> 🇮🇹💦 Of the Loin Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah you need to seperate the power supply for this from your bikes

> power supply for electrical reasons.

>

> You can make an isolation circuit or just use a battery (battery is

> easy)

>

> Maybe I'll get one of these if I ever finish my hydro Minarelli build

> Brian F Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I mean, you could easily use an isolated DC/DC converter. You'd need to

> drop down from 6V or 12V (assuming you already rectify and regulate) to

> probably 3.3V anyway.

Yo. What is going on, what are you guys even talking about? Its not wired in to the electrical system, it runs off of the tiny little watch battery you can see right there in the pictures. Thats the whole point of this post, its cheap and has a replaceable battery. The wires are going to the trail tech temp sensor - the copper washer type around the spark plug. The interference experienced is from the ignition system and was solved with a resistor plug. Its all right there, thats it. (edited)

Re: Trail tech temp death and rebirth

Isolate the thing that’s already isolated

It’s your only hope

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