Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Now that the kit is done and my Grande is running good, I've started messing with the clutch and variator, was wondering if anyone is running the red Malossi contra?

I lightened the clutch shoes, and now I have a much better low end pull, but that red contra is so super stiff I don't think it can't variate fully. I'm running the Polini variator with the heavier weights it came with, think they were 5.6g.

Here's a picture of how high the belt rose up on the variator, seems about halfway. Any tips? Maybe I should go to the yellow spring?

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Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

yeah your missing alotta speed there.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Dirty30 Dillon /

Why would you put the red contra in without a need for it?

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

variator tuning is more art than science, but i always try to get things working with the softest springs and the lightest weight, that means the least wear and tear on belts, bearings, crank and trans shaft, etc.

obviously you want to make sure you're variating fully. i don't think very many people run even the yellow spring, and red is stiffer? sounds like you need to go to a stock spring, heavy weights, then start lowering your weights from there with a methodical approach.

the spring is usually the last thing to change, and only when you really cant get the performance you need out of going to super light weights.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Bad Cadillac™ /

There's also a yellow contra spring.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Thanks guys, I had bought the red spring when I first bought the grande because I thought "stiffer= faster" and didn't know it would be useless on my stock bike.

Now that I kitted the motor I thought I'd put it in and see what happens since I had it anyway, going back to the stock one today though. I'll get some different roller weights to play with before I try any different contra colors.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Bad Cadillac™ /

Sorry my bad, reading too fast, I see you already knew about the yellow spring!

Anyway, nice looking Grande!

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Red contra is generally unnecessary. All a contra spring does is to push your bike back into low gear when RPMs drop (pushing the rear cheeks back together), so you can re-accelerate well from slowing down. The red will put an enormous amount of strain on your output shaft and motor. The stock spring is fine (unless super worn). Lots of people go up to the slightly stronger silver/white spring.

Better to start with clutch springs + getting your variator to fully variate. Some people have fast Vespas that never completely variate, however. Heavier weights will help, but your bike needs to be able to make the power to push that variator.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Don't forget that the Polini variator pulley is bigger diameter than stock variator pulley. If my memory serves me, the stock front pulley is 80 mm diameter, and the Polini variator is 90 mm. Your stock rear pulley is also 80mm. You don't get full variation on the front pulley. You can buy a larger diameter (90 mm) rear pulley to match, and change the belt to see what that does. I run a white spring, because the stock spring let the rpm's fluctuate too much. The white spring holds the gearing back just a bit until the revs build. This is all based on my 1978 Bravo.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Dirty30 Dillon /

The overall height of the pullies does not equate to variation or travel. Travel is determined by the throw laterally of the unit.

Meaning, a 90mm/100mm rear pulley both have the same amount of variation because they both move the same distance in and out along the variator shaft. The only difference is drive ratio and belt length.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> The overall height of the pullies does not equate to variation or

> travel. Travel is determined by the throw laterally of the unit.

>

> Meaning, a 90mm/100mm rear pulley both have the same amount of variation

> because they both move the same distance in and out along the variator

> shaft. The only difference is drive ratio and belt length.

Correct, sort of. As it is now, the front pulley diameter, if fully variated, is larger than the rear. The stock belt length and rear pulley prevent full variation of the Polini variator, but a longer belt would slip over the stock rear pulley. So, changing the rear pulley to a larger size to match the front pulley, and installing a longer belt would allow more lateral movement, allowing lower gearing at zero variation due to a larger rear pulley, and taller gearing and full variation on the front pulley. That is, if the contra spring doesn't prevent full variation. Treats sells larger rear pulleys. I haven't changed mine, so it variates about the same as the OP's and leaves just as much majic marker. I might be wrong, but this is the way the physics work out in my head.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

the polini works with the US contra just fine.

if you havent removed the tab for the 3rd engine mount screw, you'll probably have to do that to get your belt tension just right

its a fine line between not fully variating and slipping when you go to start it.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Seth B Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > The overall height of the pullies does not equate to variation or

>

> > travel. Travel is determined by the throw laterally of the unit.

>

> >

>

> > Meaning, a 90mm/100mm rear pulley both have the same amount of

> variation

>

> > because they both move the same distance in and out along the variator

>

> > shaft. The only difference is drive ratio and belt length.

>

> Correct, sort of. As it is now, the front pulley diameter, if fully

> variated, is larger than the rear. The stock belt length and rear pulley

> prevent full variation of the Polini variator, but a longer belt would

> slip over the stock rear pulley. So, changing the rear pulley to a

> larger size to match the front pulley, and installing a longer belt

> would allow more lateral movement, allowing lower gearing at zero

> variation due to a larger rear pulley, and taller gearing and full

> variation on the front pulley. That is, if the contra spring doesn't

> prevent full variation. Treats sells larger rear pulleys. I haven't

> changed mine, so it variates about the same as the OP's and leaves just

> as much majic marker. I might be wrong, but this is the way the physics

> work out in my head.

Changing the pulley size does not increase the amount of movement the variator can achieve, it simply changes the ratio. This is a fact.

If you had a stock belt with 100mm pullies and a polini it is way to short, so obviously putting a proper sized belt will allow the belt to sit higher in the rear sheaves at static idle.

I'll say again, all vespa rear pullies have the same throw. Putting a 1oomm plate on there does not gain you any more or less variation in and of itself.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

My favorite spring so far is the one that comes with the Pinnasco variator. It's about as stiff as the blue polini, maybe a touch more, but it's got less coils or windings or whatever.

I feel like I was having trouble with the other springs getting In the way toward full variation. I could just be crazy though.

The red malossi spring though, that's way too stiff for any practical use.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

I've had to cut down most of the aftermarket springs I've used in order to variated all the way.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

The (Blood) red Malossi Contra spring is CRAZY strong/stiff more than the Yellow. The only time you need to change the contra is if it breaks or if your displacement is 46mm (or larger). Without the larger displacement (46mm) you won’t fully compress the contra spring. Use a stock contra spring.

https://www.treatland.tv/vespa-piaggio-malossi-performance-RED-contra-p/vespa-malossi-spring-296955.ro.htm

https://www.treatland.tv/vespa-piaggio-olympia-stock-variator-spring-p/vespa-olympia-variator-spring.htm(edited)

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Sam Greenall /

Hey did you manage to find this issue? I have something very similar what did you find was the issue. I tried using bigger rollers, but the the acceleration was so un-smooth.

I have about 20mm of unused variator.

43mm polini, speed engine, 13mm carb. Polini variator blue polini spring 4g sliders

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

the issue is that nobody needs a stiffer contra spring until they are putting down serious power, and even then MAX on a moped is usually white or yellow.

go back to stock, tune weights.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

Don't forget, you won't get the belt to ride all the way out to the edge of the variator.

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

You get about .800” of belt movement before it hits the flats on the clutch cheeks keeping it from variating any more.

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Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> the issue is that nobody needs a stiffer contra spring until they are

> putting down serious power, and even then MAX on a moped is usually

> white or yellow.

>

> go back to stock, tune weights.

This. My 58mph bravo has a white spring.

Vespas arent like hobbits, they dont need help downshifting as much

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

I hope I'm not too far off this topic,so here goes. I've done some work on my 1978 Bravo, getting the speed I like, and went to WIKI, been reading this thread and internet blogs. If I'm understanding this, I don't really need the big upgrade variators. But on WIKI a company called Teknoetre, has a stock variator upgrade. If I'm understanding, it uses 8 stock weight rollers instead of the 5 I'm running. Which may tweak my speed on the end ,and gear me up a little faster, and no't just run up the rpms. But I can't locate the kit online. Also is my understanding on the right path?(edited)

Re: Vespa variator/clutch tuning - red malossi spring?

yeah the moped factory blue collar variator is just what you want, the full production run should be out maybe late feb, i might be able to find another sample from the prototype run kicking around somewere.

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