high compression and pull starts....

Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) /

Im having starting issues, looking for some input!

e50, HPI mini, treats black pipe, 47mm eurokit......

I used to have a plain jane 70 kit, that read about 200psi with a long hose compression tester. Probably not 100% accurate, but it sure felt like 200.

That thing chewed up my starter plate, hammering back n forth. That was with a lightened braced 2 shoe......switching to a jammer made it a whole lot worse. Even with a fair gap between the starter plate and the starter pads on the jammer, it would stay somewhat engaged, enough to make the bike stall if i stopped the rear wheel, unless i set the idle stupid high. I could hear the starter plate slammin around in the slots.......

Anyway, with some help and guidance from a rad fellow moped dude, i crafted a pull start with the flywheel cover and a cheapo recoil starter, choosing to just eliminate the pedal start function altogether.

I worked, but i had a hell of a time starting the bike then, and now again with this monster eurokit. Me thinks the super low rotating masses of the relatively lightweight clutch and the mini rotor is what is making it so difficult. I cant build momentum in the crank to help overcome the compression within a short pull.

-i would like to have a pedal start function, but i dont want to chew through bells and plates ( i first ran a pedal start setup with this eurokit, roughly 100 miles....no binding, idles nice n low, but there is already signs of damage to the plates solely from the effort of starting)

-A pull start would be great, but its too damn hard. I'm running 2 head gaskets in an effort to lower compression, but its still difficult, and i dont want to make my squish too large and/or loose too much grunt.

TL;DR-

I dont want to fuck up my starter plate or bell again in my e50, and compression is too high/rotating crank mass too low for a pull start. Do I :

-run an hpi weight with my homemade pull start? (can you do that?)

-go to the gym?

-run a rope start, which might be easier with the longer pull? (not against it, but id rather have my flywheel covered)

-decrease compression......space the head out more by using a thick base gasket, cutting material from the chamber?

-Am i doing it wrong, or is there some secret to making starter plates and bells last with high compression setups?

Re: high compression and pull starts....

todd amundson /

Sounds like you want a pull starter/recoil device and keep your pedal start/starter plate in there as well at the same time?

But you keep chewing up factory E50 bells and starter plates?

1. For me anything over 65cc and with a factory bushing inside the bell is gonna ruin stock Puch internals all day long.

2. It doesn’t make sense because the whole reason we install pull starts is to loose all that junk anyway.

3. Your comps are fine and you can’t spin it fast enough because you’re off center with the recoil mechanism and the pawl on the rotor/flywheel. The starter needs to be as close to centered as possible. Otherwise the crank will flop instead of spin and your arm will break.

4. A roller bearing in the clutch bell helps cut down plate chatter but getting rid of it entirely obviously solves the problems you’re referring to.

I’m not sure of what starter you have but I replace all the ropes on my starters ASAP and now they don’t break. The inner pawl you have is what I want to see. How are you catching the starter hub when it comes forward? A lot of times you have to be creative.

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Re: high compression and pull starts....

Make an aluminum disc starter, but make it larger than most.

That will give you more mechanical advantage. Engine will turn slower but should be pretty easy and nothing to chew up but a rope

Re: high compression and pull starts....

Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) /

> todd amundson Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Sounds like you want a pull starter/recoil device and keep your pedal

> start/starter plate in there as well at the same time?

>

> But you keep chewing up factory E50 bells and starter plates?

>

> 1. For me anything over 65cc and with a factory bushing inside the bell

> is gonna ruin stock Puch internals all day long.

>

> 2. It doesn’t make sense because the whole reason we install pull starts

> is to loose all that junk anyway.

>

> 3. Your comps are fine and you can’t spin it fast enough because you’re

> off center with the recoil mechanism and the pawl on the rotor/flywheel.

> The starter needs to be as close to centered as possible. Otherwise the

> crank will flop instead of spin and your arm will break.

>

> 4. A roller bearing in the clutch bell helps cut down plate chatter but

> getting rid of it entirely obviously solves the problems you’re

> referring to.

>

> I’m not sure of what starter you have but I replace all the ropes on my

> starters ASAP and now they don’t break. The inner pawl you have is what

> I want to see. How are you catching the starter hub when it comes

> forward? A lot of times you have to be creative.

I don't want both a pedal start and a pull start, i just want one option that works.

I cut pawls into the hexagonal protrusion on the hpi rotor itself, to match the pawls on the recoil starter. It's centered pretty well, never slips.

I never considered a needle bearing bell.......i didn't assume they were an absolute necessity to be honest. That's something i'll have to look into for sure, especially since they're pretty cheap. If the needle bearing bell solves the starter plate issue, ill just keep the pedal start.

Re: high compression and pull starts....

Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) /

> JBOT Admin Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Make an aluminum disc starter, but make it larger than most.

>

> That will give you more mechanical advantage. Engine will turn slower

> but should be pretty easy and nothing to chew up but a rope

That's something i considered, but i'd have to get creative with a drill press, as i dont have a lathe. Would have to be dead nuts centered to avoid vibrations.

Maybe roughly shape the disc, bolt it to the mini rotor, install the rotor onto a hacked off crankshaft taper, and install the taper into the drill press, and turn it down with a file?

Re: high compression and pull starts....

You could make the same with steel washers

Re: high compression and pull starts....

Master D. Baiter /

> Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > JBOT Admin Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Make an aluminum disc starter, but make it larger than most.

>

> >

>

> > That will give you more mechanical advantage. Engine will turn slower

>

> > but should be pretty easy and nothing to chew up but a rope

>

> That's something i considered, but i'd have to get creative with a drill

> press, as i dont have a lathe. Would have to be dead nuts centered to

> avoid vibrations.

>

> Maybe roughly shape the disc, bolt it to the mini rotor, install the

> rotor onto a hacked off crankshaft taper, and install the taper into the

> drill press, and turn it down with a file?

Heck yeaH! :)

Re: high compression and pull starts....

Sounds like your clutch and bell spacing is off if your chewing up bells and the clutch is grabbing at idle. Maybe fix the real problem instead of dancing around it and looking for other alternatives

Re: high compression and pull starts....

Brandon Weiss (Detective brandon to you) /

> Buttcheeks BUZZARD Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Sounds like your clutch and bell spacing is off if your chewing up bells

> and the clutch is grabbing at idle. Maybe fix the real problem instead

> of dancing around it and looking for other alternatives

What spacing are you referring to exactly? Starter plate to the pad? The starter plate had plenty of room before it engaged the starter pads.

Bell is shimmed nicely, no slop anywhere and spins free.

Im pretty sure the high compression and the resistance that comes with it is what was chewing the starter plate tabs and the matching slots in the bell.

Re: high compression and pull starts....

Its actually the light rotor. They dont have a whole lot of inertia and actually almost vibrate at the top and bottom of the stroke causing the clutch bell to take a beating from the starter plate

Re: high compression and pull starts....

todd amundson /

What about a tccd kit with stock points flywheel doing this or a polini?

Re: high compression and pull starts....

todd amundson /

I will fight you on this one Daniel. Merry Xmas

Re: high compression and pull starts....

It happens on every set up, but the light rotor definitely exacerbates it. Merry Christmas todd!

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