Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

So, i have a Sachs 535 laying around and was thinking if i could possibly modify the cluch to be manual because i would like to run 80cc reed kit, has anyone ever tried it with success? Shouldn't be to hard, but is it worth it?

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Master D. Baiter /

It is difficult to recognize, but I have a 505 engine project. I cut off the clutch/transmission and connected a Honda clutch/transmission thru the belt. Puch 70cc kit.

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Good luck, I haven’t seen any 505 manual clutch ideaRs.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

looked into it, seems like you could just drop the Manual 2 Speed Cluch into the Automatic engine.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

more info on this build

pweeeeese.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

I had made a thread about the 2 speeds a while back when i was still interested in the project.

https://mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?7,4103502

I think the top of the transmission is different. It could probably be done with some elbow grease and the parts for the manual

lemme know if you want me to measure stuff. i currently dont have an auto 505 to compare to.

i'm sure willd will chime in at some point

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

Yea, right now i am Working om my 503 ADV Engine, i think i will probably work with a Manual 504 for this Project, but it's definitely not going to happen in the next month or two.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

I could never get the manual clutch to hold with the torque of the 80cc... blah blah same thing everyone else says.

I don't know how the 'automatic 2 speeds' are laid out, but there are a few holes that would have to be drilled/filled to convert a set of cases. they all start with the same castings so in theory you could do it, but you'd have to do some machining or very precise hand drilling/grinding to make it work.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

Um, there are 2 Speed Automatics in this Sachs series? As far as i know there are only 1 Speed Autos and 2/3 Speed Shifted ones. Also, what i was getting at was building a 1 Speed with manual cluch.(edited)

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Master D. Baiter /

The 505 is 2 speed auto. I cut one up, but i could get another one if u need it.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

no, the 505 is not and was never a 2 Speed Automatic.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Master D. Baiter /

I must have a 504 then ;)

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

Well, the 504 wasn't avalable as a 2 speed auto either, 1 speed auto and 2 speed Manual either, not even as a 3 Speed Manual.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Master D. Baiter /

Good to know, I received it as a gift so I don’t know wtf. Hahaa

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

If the Cluch engages a 1 Speed sometimes feels like it's engaging the next gear, that's why you might think you have a 2 Speed.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

505 and 504 were basically the same, but the 505 had a pedal shaft through the case. Other small differences too

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Master D. Baiter /

> Ben Whittle Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 505 and 504 were basically the same, but the 505 had a pedal shaft

> through the case. Other small differences too

Thanks for clearing that up, i have a 505. It had the pedal shaft with starter pieces stuck to it. The jug read A-2. sorry bout tha thread jacK buddy

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

No problem, the 504's weren't quite the same, they had different Crankshafts and different Ignition's with smaller flywheels, the 505 and 535 had the big Flywheel like on Puchs, and the 504 and 508(1 Gear, Head seperated from the Cylinder) had the smaller flywheels like the Kreidlee 2 Speed Autos.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Whoa!

A manual clutch is actually super easy to do converting from the automatic, Only problem is it doesn't really help a whole lot...

Yes it allows you to get over the fact that the donut is difficult to tune, and allows you to control engagement, but you still can't handle much power without more pads and plates. A slight advantage is it lets you gear up and accommodate for the take off by feathering the clutch, and potentially more positive engagement to reduce slip and glazing, but it still slips at high RPM under load

I wrote a little thing about fully converting an automatic to 2 speed manual in the sachs clutch modifications wiki: https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Sachs_clutch_modifications

Theres a little here too: https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Sachs_505/1a_performance

Also, regarding 504 to 505 differences (and differences between A-D ratings), theyre well documented here:

https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Sachs_Motor_Differences

504, despit having a shorter case omitting the pedal and coaster brake mechanisms also had a slightly different crank as mentioned, with a different taper on the ignition and a smaller flywheel with the case around the flywheel also smaller to match. makes swapping cranks or ignitions difficult. But the topend (cylinder/piston) and transmission (clutch/gears - except pedalshaft) are identical. So the manual transfom could apply to 504 and 505

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Anyhow, I realize I missed answering the actual question except to state that it's easy!

https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/File:2speedclutch.gif

https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/File:Sachsclutch.jpg

The automatic (bottom image) operates with the donut ring (#20) on the bottom, as RPM picks up it expands pressing the clutches together, but at rest it is disengaged. Then the starter bell manually presses the clutches together to get you started.

The manual clutch is exactly the opposite. instead of a donut it has a spring (#20)which keeps the clutches always ENGAGED at rest, and pressing the bell manually pushes the pads apart. Pressing the pads apart is achieved by a series of 3 little dowels (#14) that go through holes in the plates, so the bell pushes the dowels, the dowels go through the other plates and push only on the bottom plate, which compresses the spring and lets the pads slip free.

So that's where you do it! Conveniently your plates should already have the 3 dowel holes and they line up with the existing starter bell! I have some of the dowels and can measure, or you can. 1st, replace the donut with a spring washer (probably easiest to get one for an actual sachs manual engine via ebay Germany or something - or get creative)

then line up the holes in the top 2 plates and you intentionally misalign the bottom plate- that way that the dowels got through the first 2 and push against the bottom one. then shim it all up so that when the clutch nut is tightened down the pads are pressed tightly, but pushing the dowels in allows it to spread juust enough to slip - basically same as setting clutch preload (see wiki)

There is one other big difference and that's where the lever (#3) is located, in the manuals it's outside above the clutch, and on the automatics it's internal. this is just to allow more travel and more action on the manual, BUT you can use the automatic style internal one to behave the same way. Both press on the bell, just in the manual the bell presses on the dowels to push the bottom pad apart, while in the automatic it presses on the outer plates to squish them all together. The bells are essentially the same, just a matter of shimming and getting the right length dowels

SO! that's how to do it! easy!

This however, as I started to mention, isn't worth it. because while the clutches are now manually controlled slip, they're still weak and cant handle big loads

but ALSO because its a pain in the ass to manually pull the clutch every time you stop. and worse there's no neutral gear so you're holding the clutch the whole time you're stopped. you might wind up with a really beefy left forearm, but more likely you'll grow tired of it and go back to an automatic (or better yet swap on a full automatic 2 speed bottom end - theyre only like 200 bucks...)

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

yeah i was more saying converting from 1/2 speed is not easy, the manual clutch part is easy.

i'm confused about this 'automatic 2 speed' 505, i've never heard of them, is it really a thing?

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

Again, there is no Automatic 2 Speed for these, also, The Cluches are Weak, but there are a couple of People who can put 6 Pads in one Cluch wich then can actualy hold 100+cc's.

Edit: You can also retune the Cluch of an Automatic slightly by changing the Thickness of the spacer plates.(edited)

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

> Born to be WillD Wrote:

> (or better yet swap on a full automatic 2 speed bottom

> end - theyre only like 200 bucks...)

yeah what are ya talkin about here will?

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

I meant full manual. misspoke

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Chöschi21 C.K. /

I mean, there is a Sachs 508 2 Speed with these type of Cylinders, would love to see how those look from the inside.

Re: Sachs 505/504/535 Manual Cluch

Had a 2 speed manual with the 5 piece clutch and the Athena 80. I was slipping clutches almost every time I moved. It'd get worse and worse until I couldn't start it anymore and I'd replace or re-buff the pads and be good for maybe another 10 rides. Tried the 7 piece clutch (from the later SIS engines) and that worked OK, It'd run and ride and was definitely fast, but as soon as the pipe really hit it'd rip the clutches free and start spinning. I rode it that way for probably a year with just a derestricted stock pipe to tone down the power, still had to feather the throttle a little bit to where those clutches could handle it. I tried a billion different oils and additives but nothing made a real difference. ATF was about the same as 90w gear oil in the end. I got a second manual clutch spring and doubled that up and that helped but made your clutch hand pretty tired pretty quick in stop & go Atlanta commutes.

I also found that gearing taller actually helped prevent it from slipping, because it wasnt so much the high loads as the high RPM that's break it loose. maybe it just kept things cooler? I dunno but geared tall it was much more manageable.

Then I used a bunch of thinner plates from different clutch packs and shaved down some pads to fit 9 pieces in (5 plate 4 pads) and that was awesome but difficult to keep everything exactly parallel when making it. I was able to put a legit pipe back on and it hauled ass, like crazy, hit tops over 60 (63 max gps'd). but eventually 2 of the thinner pads cracked so I got a fancy pre-made 9 piece "uber" clutch from Germany, same basically but nicely made thinner plate and pad set with stiffer spring. it was way $$$ but that lasted for years.

Eventually, I kinda got over it - put all those fast parts on a Prima and sold it, converted the 2 speed back to a ported D jug and a regular 5 piece clutch, still geared tall and alsil pipe. It'd still get up mid 40s and climb monster hills, used way less gas, quieter easier and almost never having clutch issues. Still have it in that setup now, and honestly I'm thinking about going back to just a dead simple 505 automatic on there. not worry about shifting, just cruise easy.

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