Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

♣Slew Foot♣ /

There are ceramic Pistons but it's a guy or / a factory in New England somewhere and it's like 70 bucks to coat your piston and it's coated with like that Silverstone shit that you see on frying pans it's not Teflon but rather a specialty surface that Nothing grabs on that is good and rated for the heat levels in an engine This research paves the way for the Nitro methanol batavus which the first one just seized it was doing a good 22 maybe 26 RPM it was crazy lasted about a minute and a half but I was using a sax Bing 54 carburetor from a ultralight that was made for a 250 2 stroke I have no idea I use the stock Jets and the Nitro in and race fuel from the Harley place wish I would have had a camera

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

> mat hormell Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I appreciate the info and the interest! I dkt expect a major gain in

> power from the bearings being in the motor. The major increase in power

> comes from the final drive and the wheels. That's where they really

> shine. I plan to play with different exhaust configurations and what not

> but that will all be later once ita all together and being tested. I

> have a dyno so I can make minor changes to the pipe and see what it's

> doing to the power band. Here is the dyno run from his current yt60 kit,

> made about 4.25 hp on pump gas. I have it set up right now where it

> comes on the pipe as soon as it engages and run out around 8000 rpms

>

> The springs dont engage the clutch til about 3500- 4k. It's like a

> rocket off the line with him on it already lol.

So,

You were actually using the a/f monitor on the dyno? A tube was slipped into exhaust before running?

Cause the a/f graph shows way lean from 4500 to about 7000.

20190204_125546.jpg

(edited)

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Yes using wideband, and that's from the bowl running dry. Bikenisnt making power after 8k with this combo, but I wanted to see how far the motor could rev out, so I know what I have to work with. I taped into the back of the expansion chamber and have adapters to wide band sensors

live ɘvil Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > mat hormell Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > I appreciate the info and the interest! I dkt expect a major gain in

>

> > power from the bearings being in the motor. The major increase in

> power

>

> > comes from the final drive and the wheels. That's where they really

>

> > shine. I plan to play with different exhaust configurations and what

> not

>

> > but that will all be later once ita all together and being tested. I

>

> > have a dyno so I can make minor changes to the pipe and see what it's

>

> > doing to the power band. Here is the dyno run from his current yt60

> kit,

>

> > made about 4.25 hp on pump gas. I have it set up right now where it

>

> > comes on the pipe as soon as it engages and run out around 8000 rpms

>

> >

>

> > The springs dont engage the clutch til about 3500- 4k. It's like a

>

> > rocket off the line with him on it already lol.

>

> So,

>

> You were actually using the a/f monitor on the dyno? A tube was slipped

> into exhaust before running?

>

> Cause the a/f graph shows way lean from 4500 to about 7000.

> >

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

its also the chop when I wack it to wide open throttle at the beginning that shows leak, a carb with an accelerator pump would help that out tremendously . its dead on 13:1 AFR throughout the powerband, bowl runs dry after about 8500 rpms and steadily leans out.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

On the drum

20190204_124327.jpg

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

Its obviously to short for the front wheel clamp, and the adjustable cradle only comes back so far. So how you tying that thing in?

Is it a 250i?(edited)

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

lol! YEA... I have one of my co-workers hold it from the front and just lift the real tire off the drum after the pull :`D. I have street tires for the new spoked wheels I am building for it as well.

Yes its a 250I and running winpep 8

> live ɘvil Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Its obviously to short for the front wheel clamp, and the adjustable

> cradle only comes back so far. So how you tying that thing in?

>

> Is it a 250i?

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

Be careful my man.

That drum is somewhere around 800 lbs.

When it starts spinning you aint gonna stop it with anything but the load control aka eddy current brake (that is if the dyno has that option installed).Trying to use that in your case will only add more danger.(edited)

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Ya no worries, Not the best route, but the bike is 60lbs, not real hard to hold in place with the brakes locked down, I make the pull, lift the wheel off drum and then stop the drum. Made about 30 pulls this way, working fine, may make a fixture to hold it or use a spare floor wheel chock or something when I end up messing with pipe configurations

> live ɘvil Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Be careful my man.

>

> That drum is somewhere around 800 lbs.

>

> When it starts spinning you aint gonna stop it with anything but the

> load control aka eddy current brake (that is if the dyno has that

> option installed).Trying to use that in your case will only add more

> danger.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

I can see that but I never tried. If it didnt fit the machine it didnt run. Was too much of a liability from a business standpoint. We still accommodated different wheel bases by unbolting the wheel clamp and moving to or fro on the slide. But if it still didnt fit no dice.

Almost forgot to ask, how did you interfaced the wide band from your pipe to dyno. The 250i is wide band capable and can be ordered with internal wide band option or have it installed. Typically a probe to "sniff" was inserted several inches in to pipe past baffles to get reading.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

With the dynojet wide band module that comes with winpep8. No more little vaccume operated sniffers or any of the crap, they really simplified things with winpep8

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

And yes I totally understand from a business stand point and I also would never do this with a customers bike, but my own personal stuff, I'm not to worried about it

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Also if you see pic you can see the adapter I have on the expansion chamber that taps In directly so I dont have to sniff from the back of the pipe, typically on 4 strokes I'll put the sensor about 7-10 inches from the head.

live ɘvil Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I can see that but I never tried. If it didnt fit the machine it didnt

> run. Was too much of a liability from a business standpoint. We still

> accommodated different wheel bases by unbolting the wheel clamp and

> moving to or fro on the slide. But if it still didnt fit no dice.

>

> Almost forgot to ask, how did you interfaced the wide band from your

> pipe to dyno. The 250i is wide band capable and can be ordered with

> internal wide band option or have it installed. Typically a probe to

> "sniff" was inserted several inches in to pipe past baffles to get

> reading.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Is anyone use one of the HPI igintions for the Yamaha Hopper? Looks like a descent piece, and has some adjustablitly. I emailed the vendor direct, rather than paying $300 for it I can get it at Dealer Cost with a direct purchase.. so highly considering it.

Anyone have any information? or testimonials?

HPI IGNTION.jpg

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

yeah we call that the 'hpi mini rotor' around here, lots of folks using them on just about everything

they are made in china so they aren't as reliable as a stock unit, but they are nice and light and they have nice curve options.

if you use that FMF pipe and the malossi kit, it probably wont matter since they don't make that much power to need retarting timing, but it might be a nice option to have depending on where you go with the build.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

That is kind of what I am thinking, In the long run, there is really no telling what I may end up doing further with this motor, so really wouldn't be a bad idea to have. The 2 main reasons I am considering it it to be able to fine tune the timing, and also for the stator for the charging system. I want to run a head light and tail light and a very small lithium ion battery.

As far as exhaust goes, I am open to idea and options.. I have looked at some of the qt pipes but they are just so damn massive lol.

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> yeah we call that the 'hpi mini rotor' around here, lots of folks using

> them on just about everything

>

> they are made in china so they aren't as reliable as a stock unit, but

> they are nice and light and they have nice curve options.

>

> if you use that FMF pipe and the malossi kit, it probably wont matter

> since they don't make that much power to need retarting timing, but it

> might be a nice option to have depending on where you go with the build.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

> mat hormell Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> As far as exhaust goes, I am open to idea and options.. I have looked at

> some of the qt pipes but they are just so damn massive lol.

as I'm sure you're aware, most of the power is going to come from pairing the right pipe for your event durations.

I would consider modifying an existing small dirtbike pipe, let's say a ktm/kx65 or a even a morini engine based bike, and doing your best to port the malossi to a port map that mimics the event timings and durations.

pw/qts have a pretty sturdy clutch that I'm sure you could lighten a lot and get to grab pretty damn late. Probably not KTM/Cobra 50 late, but late enough.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

> mat hormell Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I have looked at

> some of the qt pipes but they are just so damn massive lol.

yeah the best pipes for this application don't get made for QT's, either a good scooter pipe like a leovince or an MLM or Crank pipe all designed for puchs are your best bet. The scooter pipes and stuff like doppler and giannelli for variated bikes might not have the grunt to get you rolling depending on how your clutch tuning works out.

i haven't worked with that malossi kit in years, i put one on a hobbit once... and that is assuming its the same porting as the hobbit which i think it is.... it was overwhelmingly meh. i'm not even sure if it will make enough power to light up a big pipe. Unfortunately that is going to be the weak link... like putting 2" primary headers and a 850 holly on a high rise on a smal block chevy but then putting a stock cam in it.

unless you are planning on some kinda wizard porting using dental tools and stuff, that is really going to throw off the build. Maybe a tomos tecno estoril? those perform well on lower output cylinders. At some point you cant raise the exhaust anymore because you'll have too much blowdown and the transfers won't be big enough to keep it from stalling.

If i were you i'd weld up the cases and adapt right away for a scooter cylinder with good aftermarket support like a minarelli horizontal or something (if the stroke comes out close, which i think it does, you can fudge it with porting and the thickness of the spacer) then start with a conservative either 70cc or 50cc mildly ported cylinder, which you can swap later for an aggressively ported full race cylinder. There is also a lot of H20 cylinders for those platforms, but for drag racing you shouldn't need fan cooling or anything. Worst case scenario you can put a electric fan on it or run a leaf blower on it in the pits. just seems like trying to make this whole build work around a really crummy cylinder just because that is the only one out there, really limits the potential.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

The main reason I went with the Malossi 7 port QT50 cylinder was mainly do to ease of install and a really good deal that I got on it. A guy had bought it for his kids pw50, but ended up stepping up to a cobra dirtbike before install, so I was able to pick it up for a steal. Plans to send it over to MCE a local 2 stroke porter that is very well known in the kawi tipple 2 stroke drag racing.

I haven't ruled out buying a different top end and have had my eye on a few that I believe with some case welding and machining. I could for sure make fit. As mentioned before, Changing out the con rod to a 12mm pin with same stroke would be ideal and open options up tremendously.

Here is 1 kit I dont know much about, but may be a descent option? also looked at some liquid Jog and zuma cylinders I think could possibly work as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hoca-Minarelli-Ceramic-70cc-Big-Bore-Racing-Kit-10mm-Pin/182994859407

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

Mikey Antonakakis /

Like Graham said, transfers are kinda the limiting factor for making good power on a lot of off-the-shelf kits. From the kits I've seen, at least, usually there is enough exhaust port (and they are generally easy enough to increase exhaust duration) to make power, but it's a major job to get the transfers to keep up. I have no idea how well the bolt pattern and deck height and whatnot would match up, but the Peugeot Eurokit you can get at Treatland for $100 has the highest-duration transfers I've seen, 130deg out of the box, meaning you wouldn't really need to touch them.

Is this the kit you're using? https://www.treatland.tv/yamaha-QT50-YT60-malossi-70cc-kit-p/malossi-qt50-kit-318007.htm

If so, it looks like it may have some potential, at least for a lot more than 4.5hp. Post a port map if/when you can.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

yeah thats what i'm talking about, the minarelli horizontal stuff is super well supported and not far off from a QT cylinder, and you can make an adapter for big hoggin reeds on the crankcase.

i don't know the hoca port maps at all, i installed one of their kits a long time ago on an express i think? i don't remember, fit and finish were ok. Taiwan mfg i think. anything nicasil is going to be worlds better than cast iron.

the minarelli horizontal stuff is all supported in 10 pin and 12 pin, the 10 pin is common on the yamaha (zuma, jog) where as the 12 pin is prevalent in many of the clones (TGB, etc). 47 mm '70cc' stuff for them is so common and you can get up to 20+ hp stage6 cylinders.

its definitely interesting to see what a pro porter would do with that malossi kit. i realized a long time ago its better to start with a more expensive kit, than put the time and money into trying to make a lower end kit work. Even having ported lower end kits to higher end port timings and specs on paper, they don't always perform as well because the transfer shape and direction has to be modified so much. I've taken a few cheap kits to the max with 10+ hour port jobs and its just not worth it if you value your time at all. you're better off starting with a good factory-designed kit that does what you want and making incremental changes a few degrees at a time until you find the sweet spot.

thats why i've never had much faith in anyone that does 'pro porting' because the only way to really max things out is guess and check and guess and check and tune and guess and check and tune and check... etc etc. the best money you can spend on dialing in a setup like this is buying about 10 base gaskets for the 10 times you will have that cylinder off making tiny changes. I've ported dozens of these cylinders and the only way to really get them running right is keep making small changes and just fine tuning.

having a dyno is awesome, that will certainly speed up development and let you really get it dialed.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Took his pw for a rip around yesterday, bike move pretty good already lol. Just tops around 31mph, pulls to 31 pretty quick though, stupid quick with him on it lol.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

most folks around here won't know the scooter cylinders that well, sorry, DR moped cylinders for hobbit and vespa are two of my favorite for cast iron, good power for not much money and a nice broad powerband.

i'm not sure how close that cylinder is to a hobbit, the malossi kit looks like its the exact same casting as the malossi hobbit.

if you want to adapt a hobbit kit and the dimensions are close- they also have 10mm pins- the hobbit athena is an absolute monster, pulls hard over 12k rpm and probably capable of 10+ hp with the right pipe. Based on the fact people can do 70+ mph on that kit it might be as much as 15 hp ported with the right pipe.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Man that Hobbit kit looks pretty much perfect, and has exhaust options that I am looking for... hmmmm... Can anyone verify Honda Hobbit cylidner studs spacing is the same as qt50? if so, I am just end up picking up the hobbit kit.

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> most folks around here won't know the scooter cylinders that well,

> sorry, DR moped cylinders for hobbit and vespa are two of my favorite

> for cast iron, good power for not much money and a nice broad powerband.

>

> i'm not sure how close that cylinder is to a hobbit, the malossi kit

> looks like its the exact same casting as the malossi hobbit.

>

> if you want to adapt a hobbit kit and the dimensions are close- they

> also have 10mm pins- the hobbit athena is an absolute monster, pulls

> hard over 12k rpm and probably capable of 10+ hp with the right pipe.

> Based on the fact people can do 70+ mph on that kit it might be as much

> as 15 hp ported with the right pipe.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

Mikey Antonakakis /

Nice vid, bike definitely pulls well!

Graham, good sim software may take some of the work out of the guess and check porting, or at least get you closer to a "final" result off the bat. But 100% agreed on starting with better cylinders.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Thanks yes I have it set up pretty solid right now. Thing bullet proof and fast for such a small bike for a 5 year old. I've always felt it was easier to learn on a fast 2 stroke than a slow one that bogs off the start, I was right with him becuse he took right to, and started riding this combo unrestricted without training wheels from the start lol. I'll post a video in a minute of ua ripping on the dirtbike across the field behind our house. Hes running like 25 mph lol, super thick dirt.

I'm definitely interested in other top ends that are know to bolt right on, but require case port mods, I'm totally good with that and can fer it done, so if Honda hobbit is for sure a go, I'll order one, and resale this malossi kit

> Mikey Antonakakis Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Nice vid, bike definitely pulls well!

>

> Graham, good sim software may take some of the work out of the guess and

> check porting, or at least get you closer to a "final" result off the

> bat. But 100% agreed on starting with better cylinders.

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

mat hormell /

Prouder moment riding with him yet. This was the day he learned how to stay in the pipe and was flying by the end of the day lol.

I know this isn't really moped related, but it's fun to share projects and this place is full of knowledge so I started the thread here rather than the other forums, because I new I would receive valuable information . Appreciate the involvement in the thread, keep it coming lol

(edited)

Re: PW65 Malossi with WWB ceramic bearings

i don't know if it will bolt on but usually base spacer + machining off the head + 'wallering out' the stud holes will make kits work as long as they are pretty close. You can port to make up for it being a little off. another good trick is to machine aluminum 'studs' by threading 1/4" 6061 stock and screwing it into the old stud holes with jb weld, then cutting them off flush, that way you can drill a new hole that is siamesed with the existing stud hole without the bit walking.

i'm sorry i've never owned a QT or anything like that so i have no idea if they are close or not. The hardest part is usually getting the top of the cylinder machined off but it sounds like you wont have any trouble.

if you do go with the athena cylinder let me know and i'll get you one of these heads:

https://www.doscycles.com/products/moped-factory-honda-hobbit-big-fin-47mm-head?_pos=3&_sid=4c3687ce1&_ss=r&variant=7592720826396

that athena is one of the highest performing 'out of the box' cylinders in all of moped dom.... i wouldn't port it much if you're gonna run it on a single speed though, they are already pretty aggressive.

and yeah mikey, i'm with ya, the stuff you were posting a few years ago with the sim software on your peugeot was awesome... i played with bimotion a few years ago... i think for all out builds, variated and shifty's and stuff it works well but there is so much subtelty in those 'not WOT' running conditions for the milder builds and for daily driveable single speed stuff, that the results that i've gotten from sim software doesn't really capture... also i was a lot dumber about this stuff back then and it was definiitely a GIGO type situation. Someday i'd like to revisit it.

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