Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

Hello all!

Figured this build was worth a post. I'm going to be building another moped with my 6th grade students this year and wanted to do something weird. Well, I have some old advertisements for Trike mopeds and my students and I thought, WHAT COULD BE WEIRDER! So a Trike became the plan.

Recently I purchased a Pryor Trike rear end from DMW which necessitated an engine with pedals integrated. Considering I thoroughly enjoy working on Sachs, have lots of parts and tools for them as well as Sachs being the red-headed step child of Mopeds, the 505 engine was chosen.

This build will likely have slow progress until after New Years. We are still collecting parts.

So far what we have is two 505/2 manual shift engines to smoosh into 1 functioning motor. I'm getting a built crank from a friend as well as a bunch of other Sachs parts he doesn't need anymore.

I have an old Airsal kit that I blew up once which will be going onto the 505/2 with a new piston. We will be attempting to shove a 7-piece clutch set into the engine with an extra diaphragm spring to help with shifting into second. Currently I have a 14mm bing hanging around so we will probably throw that on to begin with.

Additionally due to the recent post by Graham about a weird Sachs cylinder I have discovered the existence of the bizarre Sachs stock Boner pipe. Toledo said he may have one floating around so I'm hoping to get that on the engine as well and use a clamp on expansion chamber as well as a butterfly to control the boner(butterflies get me going).

The plan for the trike is to build a flatbed with removeable bedsides to maximize storage space. The weight is my main concern and I refuse to build the entire thing out of Plywood so we will have to be creative to save on weight. The weight is the main reason for the kit and clutch upgrade. I personally am very light 145 soaking wet, but with the bed loaded up...yikes.

Hoping to use the rear "coaster" brake setup for the trike differential brake. Not sure if I will need a disc in the front or if the drum will suffice.

The shifting is going to be done Jockey Shift style with a rod and cable. Thankfully I'm a blacksmith so I should be able to fab the linkage fairly easily. I plan on putting a brake lever on the top of the rod to act as the clutch lever. No clue how that's gonna turn out.

Currently still trying to find/decide on a frame. I have a possible line on a columbia commuter but I'm not 100% sure that will happen.

I'll try to post some photos as things come together.

Looking for any other weird suggestions for this trike; the more bizarre Sachs crap I can put on it the better. Stay tuned, hoping this will be interesting.(edited)

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

i've never seen a pryor trike frame but it would probably be easiest to make the frame fit the trike, then adapt to the sachs engine. Any tube frame minarelli like a gadabout, motron, uh... there's a million of them.

that said the swingarm on sachs frames is pretty simple, might not be too hard to make that work

i'd stay 100% away from columbia, they are sub par

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> i've never seen a pryor trike frame but it would probably be easiest to

> make the frame fit the trike, then adapt to the sachs engine. Any tube

> frame minarelli like a gadabout, motron, uh... there's a million of

> them.

>

> that said the swingarm on sachs frames is pretty simple, might not be

> too hard to make that work

>

> i'd stay 100% away from columbia, they are sub par

My understanding is the trike rear end bolts through the Sachs style swing arm mount directly, along with shocks of course.

I don’t foresee any major mounting issues. In fact I may be shortening the trike swingarm mount to get the bed a bit further under the seat/rear.

So it shouldddd bolt right up to a Sachs frame but I have a welder and hot steel ready if not.

Ideally I’d love to get a balboa frame, not easy to find though and my wife refuses to let me turn her Balboa into a trike.

Good to note on the Columbia, they seemed like a maxi clone so I figured it would be alright.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

balboa shouldn't be too tough to find

the big problem wiht the columbias is they are fabricated really weird, they use an odd headset with like lawnmower bearings... might even have bushings in there? i cant remember it was some junk. and the frames are just super flimsy.

you'll want a tube frame rather than stamped because its way easier to get a good weld to hold on it, if you weld on the sheetmetal it has way more heat distorion and its not structurally sound... you can braze on the stamped frame bikes

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

6 graders?

You live in Vermont? Here in Massachusett this would be done at a tech high school!

Lmao fucking 6 graders probably turn wrenches better then me.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

I’m the Tech teacher at a Public school in NH(gotta update my profile). I use the moped building as an after school workshop, however, my classroom is full of moped stuff as well as tools, so the students see it daily.

I’m very lucky to work where I do, the Principal trusts I have the best intentions in mind for the students.

Wish I had this opportunity in elementary school. Most of them already work on their dirt bikes so they definitely know what they’re doing....mostly.

> Rocco Taco Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 6 graders?

>

>

>

> You live in Vermont? Here in Massachusett this would be done at a tech

> high school!

>

> Lmao fucking 6 graders probably turn wrenches better then me.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

dirt church alan did a footshift on a sachs manual, that info is around somewhere.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

I also wanted to mention in this that I think you're gonna have a really hard time keeping the clutch alive with the added load of a trike. Automatic will survive much better.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

I’m still surprised 6 graders are building this!

If they burn the clutch up that means those lil f**ckers got the bike running lol.

I think I just lost about half my manhood!

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I also wanted to mention in this that I think you're gonna have a really

> hard time keeping the clutch alive with the added load of a trike.

> Automatic will survive much better.

Hmm even with a 7 piece clutch and double the diaphragm springs? I mean I know I’m firmly in experimental territory.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

What's tough about them is that they don't really slip like a good motorcycle clutch, at least that had been my experience. When you try to slip them they glaze up and stop working, only way I could keep it alive was to pretty much dump it into gear and not gas it too hard. I feel like with a trike that would be really hard to get all the weight moving. Will has a lot more expertise, I'm kinda a hater to be honest, I fought the manual Sachs for years and it kicked my ass

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> What's tough about them is that they don't really slip like a good

> motorcycle clutch, at least that had been my experience. When you try to

> slip them they glaze up and stop working, only way I could keep it alive

> was to pretty much dump it into gear and not gas it too hard. I feel

> like with a trike that would be really hard to get all the weight

> moving. Will has a lot more expertise, I'm kinda a hater to be honest,

> I fought the manual Sachs for years and it kicked my ass

I know very little about the manual motors beyond what I've read here. I definitely have thought about the weight being an issue; more engineering challenges but not something that cannot be figured out!

This build doesn't have a lot of "serious" going for it, if ya get my drift. Just want to try out something weird, my students are totally on board. Also currently farting around with a dual intake for this, photos to come. In this case, truly no reason but because it's possible, I found 3 stock angled intakes I had laying around.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

It would seem I may need to run an oil cooler.

I have a Seville flywheel cover with a oil pump for 2 stroke. Wonder if I can use that with a radiator to cool the clutch fluid .(edited)

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

Most of the major building won’t happen until after the new year, so I’ve been messing around with the dual carb intake idea.

Pretty close to having a first version setup. Using two stock intakes a bit chopped up.

I’ll be opening up the intake a bit more to fit the size of the intake port on the airsal kit. Hopefully this will aid in getting the maximum amount of fuel/air mix into the cylinder.

I do realize there is really no performance basis on this, just doing it because it’s possible.

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Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

DrGeorgeTompson (Alan) /

> Born to be WillD Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> dirt church alan did a footshift on a sachs manual, that info is around

> somewhere.

Ye, here's that thread

I had 3 clutch pads in it and 2 springs. I replaced the thick elliptical? washer on the end of the clutch stack with a thinner one and added a spacer to the cover. It held up rather well after I used lock nuts on the clutch to keep it from spinning off. double spring and extra parts held the 24mm and 80cc kit wide open all the time.

If you dont gear it to try and go 1000 miles an hour, the modified clutch does fairly well. I tried pretty hard to lock the clutch up as soon as possible though. Once it dropped from a 13 tooth front sprocket to 11 it was much more manageable and enjoyable to ride. The trike weight may cause problems. idk. It's a cool project and i think it should work out.

Foot shift was neat cause you could kinda jam it into 2nd since it doesnt really like to fall in at high rpm.

That motor is just sitting on a shelf now. Maybe i'll bring it back out some day.(edited)

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

So I’m planning for everything. Spoke to a few people, read a few things, made a plan for the clutch....cool it.

Assuming heat is a major factor in glazing the pads, this should help reduce that and allow me to slip the clutch.

Upon recommendation by j-bot I’ll be cooling the head with water as well; using the 1977 head I should be able to keep the engine frosty. This will hopefully allow me to manage my clutch temps using an aluminum waterblock([url=http://Yobett Aluminum Water Cooling Blocks for CPU Heatsink Cooler Plater 41x 41 X 12mm

[url=http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DHC2GJ6/?tag=mopedarmy-20]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DHC2GJ6/[/url]

]Yobett Aluminum Water Cooling Blocks for CPU Heatsink Cooler Plater 41x 41 X 12mm

[url=http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DHC2GJ6/?tag=mopedarmy-20]http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DHC2GJ6/[/url]

[/url]

)

with a Peltier cooler and a heat sink...maybe?

Not sure on the peltier yet but will definitely be putting an aluminum water lock under the clutch area of the case.

It is unfortunate to be limited by aluminum. In the computer cooling world there are tons of copper/nickel options for cooling.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

Yobett Aluminum Water Cooling Block

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

neat. Nick K who had probably the fastest sachs I've ever known of was a big advocate of cooling the clutch fluid. I'm not convinced personally, but its worth a shot. Definitely getting the 7 piece is critical, anything to get more area.

For me, in my experience, the slipping occurred not when starting off the line, but rather at high RPM. At first with athena 80, blaster pipe on the 5 piece it'd run ok up to mayb 5-6k, and then the pipe would hit and it'd start spinning. It was always at high RPM and high power I had the slip and glaze issues. That's where I think the stiffer springs really helped and it also seemed to work better at taller gearing, very counterintuitively. maybe that is justa heat thing though?

I also played with about a billion different fluids and nothing consistently benefiting noticeably

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

> Born to be WillD Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> neat. Nick K who had probably the fastest sachs I've ever known of was a

> big advocate of cooling the clutch fluid. I'm not convinced personally,

> but its worth a shot. Definitely getting the 7 piece is critical,

> anything to get more area.

>

> For me, in my experience, the slipping occurred not when starting off

> the line, but rather at high RPM. At first with athena 80, blaster pipe

> on the 5 piece it'd run ok up to mayb 5-6k, and then the pipe would hit

> and it'd start spinning. It was always at high RPM and high power I had

> the slip and glaze issues. That's where I think the stiffer springs

> really helped and it also seemed to work better at taller gearing, very

> counterintuitively. maybe that is justa heat thing though?

>

> I also played with about a billion different fluids and nothing

> consistently benefiting noticeably

I'm really banking on the idea that most of the glaze is coming from the heat+fluid due to the friction. I'm thinking I can't reduce the friction as I need grab but I can try to prevent the fluid from getting superheated from all the friction.

Basically I'm gonna try everything I can think of to make it work. I have the parts and the time so why not!

Hoping to get this thread moving a bit more soon. Still waiting on a lot of the parts I'll need.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

that's the attitude you need, and it'll be successful

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

Just got some water cooling parts in.

Not sure what radiator to use with the setup. I like the small polini radiator but it seems based on reviews it doesn’t perform very well.

I may go with that barebones aluminum radiator instead.

Just need my rear end and frame to come in and then we can get busy!

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946A24AD-76B1-4277-B1B1-4C0F30797623.jpeg

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

Yes those little polini radiators suck.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

As a elementary science teacher I am totally into all of this.

I would love to see the pipe. I am super interested in that. Any chance you found one?

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

For a Sachs I bet that polini snake will do fine. It’s made for use without a water pump.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

The legendary boner:

284E4FD3-2C28-4B9B-BFD6-D4CA9D45AF26.jpeg

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

That’s a nice chrome boner.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

> Daniel '' Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> For a Sachs I bet that polini snake will do fine. It’s made for use

> without a water pump.

The snake also has a sexy 3D printed mount on it already just begging to be used. I may try it first just to test and go from there. Who knows!

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

did anyone establish what the boner was supposed to do?

I'd use that snake radiator, it's easy. I got most of my radiator stuff from kids dirtbikes and whatever on ebay/craigslist.

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

Hi all!

Just wanted to post a brief update. My after-school Moped "PIT Crew" program starts next week so things will be ramping up in this thread.

So far we've had a couple changes to the original plan.

We will be running kx80 forks in the front with a 19" wheel and disc brakes. I was able to source a setup in CT and will be picking that up next weekend for some braking power. The hope is the forks will be much better at handling the added weight of the trike, as well as stopping it.

Also it turned out the boner pipe I was gonna get was designed for a specific Sachs motor that doesn't have many exhaust alternatives, so the owner wanted to keep it. Ob piously this led to even more craziness. Dos cycles is sending me two mostly-complete circuit pipes which we will be welding up to make into an upswept, scrambler pipe that IDEALLY will travel up just under the seat and let out right over the crate in the back.

Other than that we've just been collecting the small parts.

Monday my students and I will make a rendering of the bike as well as disassemble the main 505 we will be working on. Additionally I think with all the parts we have we will one able to make a backup single speed motor, great extra practice for the students.

Oh I also found a real sexy motorcycle speedometer that seems to do alright with a moped speedo cable so I'm hoping to use that. Should look good on the kx80 front end.

Sorry for the lack of photos, next post will hopefully have a ton!

Re: Mutant Manual Sachs Trike Build

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Born to be WillD Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> did anyone establish what the boner was supposed to do?

On stock pipe, the boner is used to add "tuned length" to pipes that don't have the possibility to be a straight length and provide the needed specs. My Vespino stock pipe was like this.

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