Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

I really want to buy this from treats for my Vespa's that have points cases; however, I am a little worried about point number two:

"the woodruff key is not in the correct place for vespa points cranks so you will have to time this with a timing light and skip the woodruff key on the crank. well worth it considering you get the magical power of elettronico."

So I can literally run my engine with no woodruff key? How the hell does the flywheel rotate with the crank, pressure from the crank nut? Seems crazy to me... Here's a pic I found on an old post and sure enough no woodruff key:

And assuming I CAN do that, I'm essentially adjusting timing by moving the flywheel into the right radial position on the crank (since there is no longer a woodruff to set that statically)? Isn't that going to be a ton of removing and reseating the flywheel? Sounds like a PITA but I REALLY want a CDI on my Grande to mess with timing curves, and I want to stick with he stock cases. I'm sure I am missing something and I am a CDI noob, sorry guys.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Well, I can answer one question. The flywheel is pressed onto the taper of the crank when you tighten down the variator nut. The woodruff is only there for alignment. Yes, other people have run without them. I know nothing more.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Yes, run without the key.

Lap the taper with coarse grinding compound to make it fit and stick hard

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

Thanks guys. So how do I go about timing it? With a traditional timing light and then removing and reseating the flywheel radially on the crank until I can get it in the perfect spot? I can do this on a bench right? I've never used a timing light lol.

It would really suck if I have to mount the engine and run it to test timing (but i've only ever seen the lights used on running engines), then remove the engine and flywheel to adjust and start over...

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

You totally can mount the motor and adjust the timing. I swore I did a write up on this.

I bench tested it with a drill. I put it all together. Mounted a coil and CDI box to the cases. Made a timing mark. Found where it fired marked the cases. Pulled the flywheel and set it to 1.5mm BTDC. Lined the marks back up and tightened it down.

Once on the bike I think I retarded the timing a little because I was off. So I used a piston stop. Pulled the flywheel on the bike moved it a mm or 2 and tightened it back down. Worked surprisingly awesome.

I lapped the flywheel to make sure it would seat properly.

I have to re-time mine, but I need to redkot the tank first. Yeah pin holes behind the mount to the subframe. But if I did not do a write up I am going to. I aware I did but I can’t find the thread.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

Thanks, I actually just found a really good comment somewhere on here from Marc Friedman that explains how exactly to do that as well as some other quirks of Kinetic style CDIs on stock vespa points cases. Another reason I want the CDI is to run DC straight off of my stator, this CDI will do that right? From the lighting coil? I need to reliably run a DC Bosch water pump for a water cooled set up and I think a CDI will help me do that but I might be totally off.. If its AC can I convert it to DC before my rectifier? Sorry I'm getting off topic lol. Here is the comment tho, from this post:

> Marc Friedman Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Well while we are turning this buy sell into an instructional for

> installing on a Vespa here are a couple of things that I needed to do in

> order to make it work.

>

> 1. Unless somebody knows how to mark exactly where the trigger point on

> the ignition coil and the fly wheel occur so the timing can be

> statically set with the motor off the subframe ( which I've spend

> innumerable hours trying to exactly define to no avail ) it's quite a

> task to do seeing using the woodruff key puts the timing about 20

> degrees too retarded. Ie happens after tdc.

>

> 2. The ignition coil and the light coil have to have metal removed to

> clear the flywheel. ( At least on two Vespa cases I've done it to )

>

> 3. The light coil is 12 v so if u float the end that is to ground it can

> be rectified and regulated for fabulous led lighting.

>

> 4. The brake switches had to be switched in on /off manner because I

> decided to.power them off the light coil and not the back of the

> ignition coil.

>

> 5. If u do 12 v dc as in #3 then I chose to separate the ground to

> a.common wire to return to the silicon rectifier.

>

> 6. Likewise the horn is also a project.

>

> 7. Remember when u are shaving down the coils to clear the magnets that

> metal expands when hot so keep sanding. When they expand and make

> contact with the flywheel it behaves just like a seize.

>

> 8. If I had known all this in advance I would have started with a

> kinetic case which I assume is not an exact copy of a.vespa case.

>

> 9. Setting the timing with the engine mounted can be done. Pull variator

> , attach a genuine Vespa flywheel puller and losen the flywheel. Now

> figure out which direction to rotate the flywheel ( counterclockwise to

> make the timing more to tdc ( retard timing) , manage to reset flywheel

> without it all rotating ( haha on that ) mark your new tdc on case and

> flywheel , reassemble and shoot with strobe to try and get something

> about 16 degrees before tdc. And if u r getting frisky and use the Parma

> one wire with the 7 degree retarding curve ,anticipate that too.

>

> 10. Someone smarter.than me has an easier way but I've heard a bunch of

> times how this is a plug and play and that isn't my experience. If u

> haven't actually tried to put a kinetic ignition / lighting on a Vespa

> please don't tell me I don't know what I'm doing.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

You can use the stock Vespa light coil to get dc voltage. You have to run the light coil to a regulator/rectifier then float the dc current to the lights and water pump. On my ciao I’m running the stock 6v light coil regulated/rectified I never measured the voltage output but it lights led lights fine. The kinetic light coil is 12 volt but still puts out ac volts unless it’s ran through a rectifier.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Here’s a thread I posted in about the regulator rectifier

https://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?1,4259796

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

It's been like 3 months but finally pulled the trigger and bought the kinetic CDI, just came in the mail today.I am going to be attempting to install it and time it sometime within the next couple of days. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

I got the coils mounted and lapped the crank and flywheel. That all feels fine. I just can’t get spark. I’m bench testing it with a drill.

Neither the red/white or the red wire coming off of the internal ignition coil are pulling out ANY voltage. Is there a chance that the internal ignition coil treats sent me is a dud? That would really suck. I don’t see a ground for it either like the lighting coil has. Any tips are greatly appreciated I really wanna get this thing running ASAP.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Oh so this is why my Vespa isn't running.

I don't have a timing light, can I just move the flywheel 20 degrees to make it work?

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

> discontinuuity _ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Oh so this is why my Vespa isn't running.

>

> I don't have a timing light, can I just move the flywheel 20 degrees to

> make it work?

I mean you could. But mine was firing 1.8 ATDC and I set it to 1.5BTDC. I would definitely invest in a timing light.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

> Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I got the coils mounted and lapped the crank and flywheel. That all

> feels fine. I just can’t get spark. I’m bench testing it with a drill.

>

> Neither the red/white or the red wire coming off of the internal

> ignition coil are pulling out ANY voltage. Is there a chance that the

> internal ignition coil treats sent me is a dud? That would really suck.

> I don’t see a ground for it either like the lighting coil has. Any tips

> are greatly appreciated I really wanna get this thing running ASAP.

Do you have the box hooked up and grounded to the motor? Did you hooked to the HT coil? Only real way to check. Just ground everything to the motor.

1E8B1DEE-3C27-40DB-9EE8-F7594008A804.jpeg

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

10/10 wish I kept the points....

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

Well I had everything hooked up and grounded, but no spark. So now I am just trying to purely read voltage off of the ignition coil itself to see if maybe I got a dud. I get no voltage. Let's pretend that is ok (it probably isn't, right?), here is how I had it hook up.

Red wire from ignition coil going to the red wire on the CDI box. White (w/ red line) wire on the ignition coil going to the white wire on the CDI box (there are two spots on that termination, I'm assuming the other is for the kill switch I don't have, should be fine left open though, it's like the kill switch is off, nothing to ground to).

Then, Black wire from CDI box (the one with the ring terminal) to case ground. Blue wire with female spade terminal on the CDI box to the male spade lead on the HT coil. HT coil body grounded to the case. Spark plug grounded to the case.

Assuming all my grounds are good, this is how you wire these right? I did this and go no spark, which is why I ended up tracing my lack of voltage to the internal ignition coil. With points that's always where I go first, measure the voltage off of ignition wire coming off of the points. My theory is the same here, one of those wires from the the ignition coil should be spitting out 12v or close to it, right? CDI box has to get power somehow. So, is it safe to assume this kinetic ignition coil from treats is dead as a doorknob?

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> EH FCC of the QCB Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> 10/10 wish I kept the points....

Why don't you like the CDI? I've heard amazing things about these kinetic CDIs especially on the vespas. Apparently they help you rip insanely hard and can be very reliable. My points set up sucked ass and was very unreliable. Maybe I was doing it wrong idk, but I really wanna get the CDI working. I have the entire damn kit and bought a $50 timing light and really want to get this shit blasting.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Dirty30 Dillon /

Late model points are great, and the stock Vespa CDI is great. The kinetic CDI's off of the early bikes have worked for me, but I've seen the later models have issues with timing as I think the key may have gotten moved in production

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

> Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> > EH FCC of the QCB Wrote:

>

> > -------------------------------------------------------

>

> > 10/10 wish I kept the points....

>

> Why don't you like the CDI? I've heard amazing things about these

> kinetic CDIs especially on the vespas. Apparently they help you rip

> insanely hard and can be very reliable. My points set up sucked ass and

> was very unreliable. Maybe I was doing it wrong idk, but I really wanna

> get the CDI working. I have the entire damn kit and bought a $50 timing

> light and really want to get this shit blasting.

Same hopes and dreams I had. I got it perfect once. But my flywheel was so out of balance it could not take the revs. I had a friend balance it. I put it back together but it was not firing correctly and I got mad and have not touched it since. I feel like a good points setup is way easier to get it running right. I would never do this swap again. Personally it has been frustrating. I hope you get it right but I dumped too much time in my bike to have it run like shit. I personally feel like the parts are not worth it and a properly set up set of points is way better.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

> Dirty30 Dillon Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Late model points are great, and the stock Vespa CDI is great. The

> kinetic CDI's off of the early bikes have worked for me, but I've seen

> the later models have issues with timing as I think the key may have

> gotten moved in production

That makes a lot of sense. I feel like Copies of copies became a problem.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Okay so first, marc f is crazy and you should take what he says with a grain

Second it doesnt matter how far off your timing is, it would still make spark. It might be the coils, but were you sure to attach the internal ground rings?

I run kinetic cdis on all 4 of my vespas with the native timing and I have had only one seizure in what is probably a combined 20k miles

I did however order some kinetic flywheels from Saudi Arabia once and their keyways were off by like 12* soooo iunno?

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

is the flywheel all the way down, no points cam right? just thinking about the air gap, does the lighting coil put out juice? they both cant be bad.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> alex . Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Okay so first, marc f is crazy and you should take what he says with a

> grain

>

> Second it doesnt matter how far off your timing is, it would still make

> spark. It might be the coils, but were you sure to attach the internal

> ground rings?

>

> I run kinetic cdis on all 4 of my vespas with the native timing and I

> have had only one seizure in what is probably a combined 20k miles

>

> I did however order some kinetic flywheels from Saudi Arabia once and

> their keyways were off by like 12* soooo iunno?

Thanks ya'll. If you read the link for the CDI I purchased from treats and the first few posts in this thread: I don't care 100% at all about the keyway or timing. I now know how to time a CDI, that is not a problem and quite frankly is a moot point against using a CDI. You can't say a CDI is bad because you can't time it properly, that's like saying a TV sucks because you don't have an outlet to plug it into. Just get a timing light and time it, that's not what I am worried about. Points suck compared to CDI in terms of performance so lets forget for a minute that you may or may not know how to time a CDI. . .

@alex, the ignition coil doesn't have a ground ring on mine! Ugh. Is it supposed to? The lighting coil has a little ring terminal for the screw that holds the coil in, and that one outputs voltage just fine. There is only a red and white wire coming off of my ignition coil though and they both are wrapped in heat shrink to be sent outside of the case through the little hole. There is NO ground wire with a little ring terminal on this coil. . .

For real though, can anyone that actually has a CDI on their bike measure one or both of the two wires coming off of the ignition coil pretty please? Like just unplug it from the CDI box and hook your multimeter up? Positive to one of the wires from the coil and negative to case ground? Do you get ANY voltage? I really just want to let treats know they sent me a busted coil so I can get a replacement out here or make the decision to buy a different replacement that is maybe more reliable. But I have no clue if these coils are supposed to actually READ voltage before they are hooked up to the CDI box, cuz maybe the CDI box feeds the coil the ground, I really have no idea which is why I am asking.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> pat splat Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> is the flywheel all the way down, no points cam right? just thinking

> about the air gap, does the lighting coil put out juice? they both cant

> be bad.

Lighting coil puts out juice. The flywheel is ALL the way down, NO rubbing and NO points cam. To be quite honest it spins beautifully on the crank. Way more smooth than my points flywheels do. I've 10000% checked that the flywheel is not hitting the coils (can't this cause them to ground out or something?) by using tape around the edges of the coils to check for rips and cuts and stuff in the tape. I had found some and filed down the coils so that it's perfect.

What do you mean about an "Air Gap"?

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Dirty30 Dillon /

No one was questioning your ability to time.

You should have voltage outputting from the coil, obviously. My kinetic ignition is on a bike in the shop rn, if I get there this weekend I'll DMM it.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

> Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> What do you mean about an "Air Gap"?

That's what you checked when you applied tape to the coil ends .

And , flywheel hitting the coil ends simply further grounds the coil core . Might not be too much juice being produced .

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Yeah, you gotta have that points cam on there for taper protection

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> alex . Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah, you gotta have that points cam on there for taper protection

Whaaaa??

1.) with the points cam on, the flywheel doesn’t sit all the way down so the variator won’t even fit on the crank

2.) even if 1 wasn’t an issue, with the cam on the flywheel won’t even fit down far enough to make a full “seat” on the crank, so it just spins around the crank without spinning the actual crank itself

3.) additionally the flywheel sits so high up on top of the points cam you can actually see inside the engine case, no way u can run like this. The plastic flywheel protection shroud wouldn’t even fit on.

Is there a different cam I have to order?

There’s no way I can use my points current cam with this flywheel. The thickness of the flywheel center where the crank goes through is much smaller than on all my other Vespa flywheels.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

You'll need a different thickness spacer, the Kinetic uses a little plastic donut that replaces the points cam. Not sure of the size but I'll measure it next time I have the flywheel off.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

test, the two wires coming off your ignition coil at the same time, not one at a time. +to+ -to-, not to case! testing one wire would be like testing a battery on one end and the other to the dirt. meter on ac setting.

meter on ohms. test if the ig coil is continous and if theres a short to ground.

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