Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> pat splat Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> test, the two wires coming off your ignition coil at the same time, not

> one at a time. +to+ -to-, not to case! testing one wire would be like

> testing a battery on one end and the other to the dirt. meter on ac

> setting.

>

> meter on ohms. test if the ig coil is continous and if theres a short to

> ground.

I get zero volts when I test them like that. Haven’t ohm tested them let me check. Thanks guys.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> discontinuuity _ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> You'll need a different thickness spacer, the Kinetic uses a little

> plastic donut that replaces the points cam. Not sure of the size but

> I'll measure it next time I have the flywheel off.

Damn that’s wild! Ugh though that means I gotta find another piece. . . And wait for it to ship. Is there a way I can deduce how much the flywheel needs to be raised up? In the event you can’t measure soon? Like is there somewhere the flywheel should line up vertically on the case? It seems almost perfect already compared to how far down my points flywheels sit.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> discontinuuity _ Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> You'll need a different thickness spacer, the Kinetic uses a little

> plastic donut that replaces the points cam. Not sure of the size but

> I'll measure it next time I have the flywheel off.

Also this topic was briefly touched in this thread: https://www.mopedarmy.com/forums/read.php?7,2003716

Lee in post 8 mentioned that you can forget about the spacer. I know this a slightly different circumstance because OP was shearing keys and NEEDED the key for timing, while in this case I don’t. I don’t want to seize my flywheel to my crankshaft or some shit... but I don’t see why I need the space at all since I don’t have a woodruff key. IF the bottom of the flywheel is bottoming out on the cam spacer, and that’s where it’s force is being outputted when u crank down the variator, then that means it’s not being outputted to the taper of the crank, and your timing will certainly start to slip and change over time... IF u are even grabbing the crank taper in the first place. And even if the cam spacer is the perfect height... it’s near impossible to have the force evenly distributed on both. I don’t see how u could have the best of both worlds. It’s obviously fine when u are using a woodruff key to allow the flywheel to grab the crank... so you don’t need that downward force onto the crank taper. But without the woodruff key I can’t see how it’s possible to run with the cam lobe, and if you ARE... then there is no way ur cam spacer is actually bearing any real weight of the flywheel.... if it’s running then the crank taper should be taking most or all of that force. You know what I’m getting at?

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Without that cam, flywheel installation and removal is going to eat your taper much faster

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

For the record the Kinetic plastic spacer is 10.46mm thick

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

> alex . Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Without that cam, flywheel installation and removal is going to eat your

> taper much faster

Alright so my coil was bad. New replacement came in the mail and everything is running. I set the timing to roughly between 1.5 and 2.0 BTDC (I only have one of those cheap plastic micrometer depth gauges to do this, a more precise one is on the way.

Throttle response is fantastic, feels like it pulls a bit harder than my points setup did too. But, I definitely lost top speed. Nothing else has changed, I went from 50mph to 43mph. Any ideas? Should I try to adjust my timing a bit? I’ve heard these stock kinetic CDI boxes aren’t the best. Maybe I should try for a different CDI box with a curve? Does anyone use that awesome sounding Parmakit one?

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Dirty30 Dillon /

Saying that you gained accell, and lost top speed, compared to points, tells me timing changes have caused the top speed loss.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

I did figure it was due to the timing changes. Do you know if I’d have to retard or advance timing to gain top speed over acceleration? I can’t find many details on this.

Also I just realized this. Would a timing curve even matter at all on a variated moped since you’re always at WOT full RPM? Or am I wrong in this line of thinking. . .

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Dirty30 Dillon /

If you are tuning your trans really well, you can mitigate the need for curve and just have the timing static. I have had pretty great luck on Vespas with just late model poinst and stock Piaggio CDI. Tune the trans and variator and you'll be golden.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

right my trans is superrrr tuned already. like i said I've already had a top speed (and acceleration) I'm happy with I'm just trying to get close to that with my new CDI (which begs the question why even go to a CDI, but that's not what I want to get into).

So, do i retard or advance my timing to get closer to my previous setup, taking into account that I lost top speed and gained acceleration in comparison? Again I can't seem to find this information. I want to say retard the timing but really have no idea. I feel like I hear advanced timing helps with acceleration (which would in turn hurt your top speed right?).

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Dirty30 Dillon /

"Between 1.5mm and 2.0mm" is too broad a range to make a suggestion.

Most kitted, static-timed variated bikes really prefer 1.2-1.5 mm BTDC. Even bikes with curves, that is where they typically want their curve to end up. Start at the 1.2 end and see what it do.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

Took a break for a bit but I'm going to get back to this on the weekend. I know between 1.5 and 2.00 is too general so I'm going to get an exact measurement of what is now and go from there, starting with 1.2mm BTDC.

This is dumb but . . . moving my timing for 1.5 o 1.2 mm BTDC is considering advancing it right?

I've been having some odd issues with fueling/jetting as well and I really think all of this comes down to not having the timing right. My plugs were looking super lean and my temps felt high, so I upjetted. I went from a 70 to a 73, and it still looks lean and feels hot. No little ring on the electrode either, so I think my timing is shitty.

I really shouldn't have to upjet after changing to a CDI in a perfect world, right? IF timing was still the same? My bike used to run like a dream at a 70 jet with no issues, using points.

I'm gonna check and re-set my timing, pull the top end off to have a look, and solder up my trail tech temp gauge to start nailing this down. Thanks for all the help guys.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Mine has a bad coil too. It was new. Idk if the CDI fried it?

Mine is set at 1.2 and it tops out at about 43 too. I started at 1.8 but it was way too hot. I think there is a rev limiter. I am done with messing with mine. I going to points soon. I gave my set away. I feel like I have taken my bike apart too many times messing with this trash and wearing out parts for no reason. (edited)

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Dirty30 Dillon /

I Just started up my Stock PX Points Case/Kinetic CDI/Pinasco motor and it runs great on a complete, early kinetic CDI.

Not overly hot by any means, and no top-end/rev stopper

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

I really think it is all in the one you get. It is just a roll of the dice.

Dillion I would definitely hold on to that setup.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

You know you can download an angle finder to your phone? Tape your phone to your flywheel and it makes it real easy to make timing marks.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Well I'm being disparaged even without posting. Fabulous. The Parma one wire cdi is the one that works for me.

Alex.i recall claims that it all fits perfectly together with a woodruff key ...and that all the items perfectly clear ...ok ..the stuff I bought didn't./doesn't. The OEM kinetic coils required extensive shaving to not rub when a oem Vespa points case is fitted with the kinetic flywheel that Cosmo sold two to me. Cosmo sold his stock to treatland. Anyway I did succeed in getting the whole shebang to work correctly and I rectified and regulated it to 12 v DC. It's on my grande and it works. I've got an additional set of parts if somebody wants them for what I paid for them. I haven't been toying with my Vespas for a.while.plus I'm holed up in my RV because of covid 19.

As I recall u can't use the cam lobe points timer with a kinetic cdi flywheel. Also the flywheel.pictured above isn't the correct flywheel for the kinetic cdi. Also.vespa flywheels apparently lack sufficient magnetic strength.

Anyone with questions please pm me so Alex doesn't have to get all worked up. We need to stay calm in this national emergency. I'm not even going to.follow this. Use my pm if serious.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Hey y'all I got my engine to run last night. It's a Kinetic case with CDI and a Vespa crank. Maybe this will help if you're having trouble getting the timing right like I was:

First I cleaned up the tapered fit surfaces and lapped them together with toothpaste (real valve lapping compound would work better but I didn't have any, maybe next time I take it apart). I made a mark on the flywheel and used a timing light to make a corresponding mark on the case:

I chased my tail for a while trying to get the flywheel mark to line up with 1.5 mm BTDC until I realized that the spark is going to fire in the same place relative to the flywheel no matter how I rotate it relative to the crankshaft. Maybe I'm just stupid but it took me some time to realize.

So I used some calipers to find 1.5 mm BTDC and made a mark on the variator (with a piece of solder as a pointer).

I got the mark on the variator to line up with the pointer, and then rotated the flywheel so that the flywheel mark lined up with the crankcase mark. After I put the engine back in the frame I made sure everything lined up at 1.5 BTDC using the calipers and confirmed with a timing light.

It's running but I've still got some ways to go before I can ride it. The petcock leaks, all the cables are trashed, and I have to redo all the wiring. Plus I'll probably paint it and fix a few cosmetic issues. But I'm glad that it's at least running for the first time in like 5 years:

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) /

Sorry for not following this one for a bit yall but i figured I would check back in with some success and to recap some information that pertained to my installation.

NO cam lobe. The flywheel sits way, WAY, way, way, too far away from the cases with the stock cam lobe in there. I understand that some spacing may be needed in some scenarios to prevent eating up your crank but I've got 20 hours + on this now and I've moved around and removed and reinstalled that flywheel a TON of times to mess with timing. It looks mint, seriously like mint.

Like Marc mentioned I also had to file down those Kinetic coils a LOT. The mounts in the vespa case must obviously be spaced differently that with the kinetic cases or something. Or maybe treats is pumping out kits with slightly different flywheels (could explain why some need the cam lobe and some don't). Either way I had to go to work on both corners of both coils with a flat file, didn't take too long.

Also my kit from treats 100% did ship with a bad internal ignition coil, so that's always possible. Test for continuity!

I messed around with timing a lot on this, and for a while it was a big struggle to get my bike back to the 49mph that it was doing before. Turns out I was fighting air leaks and after I sorted those out and ditched the head gasket tuning got a lot easier, but there was definitely still some trial and error. After all is said and done I'm sitting around, as best as I can measure, 1.55mm-1.6mm BTDC. My throttle response is bonkers good and my top speed is actually up to 50mph now.

Despite being told to have fun burning a hole in my piston at 1.6mm BTDC, the bike is running like a monster, and has been reliably for a while now. My trail tech is broken so I don't have numbers but I know my temps are doing fine. I've had the top end off 4 or 5 times with this timing to check on things and everything has looked perfect.

I went to a CDI for reliability and the option to run a lighter, pinasco, flywheel some day. Maybe I'm a dumbass and was fucking up points but this CDI has been lightyears more reliable than any of my points setups on my vespas in the past. I never did use fresh coils on those setups but everything was brand new and I was literally rewiring them every week, it SUCKED. This did what I wanted it to do and I'm super happy with it. Thanks ya'll for the help and answering my stupid stupid stupid questions.

Re: Kinetic CDI on Vespa Points case

Dirty30 Dillon /

> Jason ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> I went to a CDI for reliability and the option to run a lighter,

> pinasco, flywheel some day.

AFAIK, the Pinasco flywheel does not work with the Kinetic setup.

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