kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

65cc airsal kit trouble

Phase 1 - 16/40 gearing, bing 15 clone, 2.22, 72 jet, stock airbox , techno circuit- ran great but dreadful off the line

Phase 2 - 14/40 gearing, estoril side bleed with most restricted bleed screw - total ripper but revving the piss out of it and worried I was lean and hot. Puttng the estoril on the airsal was not plug and play. The flange and holes did not line up and seemed like the cylinder was too small for the flange.

Phase 3 - 14/40, bing 15 clone, 2.22, 79 jet, metal mesh filter, estoril side bleed - did not hit the powerband as hard as Phase 2. temps 330-360 after 30 minutes of country running. Possible soft seize at 360. Not sure. Bike seemed to stall going 40 and came right back when I downthrottled. Happened three times. Seems like a little less torque.

Phase 4 - Ken Roff Recommended. 14/40 (ken says 16/40 with new clutch springs), bing original 15, generic 217 atomizer, 79 (ken says 78) jet - bike would not run without the stock airbox on it and ran poorly until 20mph but it did hit on the powerband. Would not run with metal mesh, I am obviously getting too much air, but can't think I am getting too much fuel with a 79 jet and can't imagine one jet size would make that much of a difference.

Not sure where to go with this. I want to run the metal mesh for sound and want to safely run my kit.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Are you using the slide needle with 1 or 2 rings on it?

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

one. single embossed.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

light may slowly be dawing on marble head thanks to posters on a facebook thread. am I correct in thinking that i went from being lean at 15/15/222/72 mesh estoril to way leaner at 15/15/217/79 mesh estoril? what a fuckin dub...

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

The single ring needle is very lean in a 15mm carb, switch to a double ring needle and it should run much better in the low end and transition.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Have you done a leak down test? Did you plug the decomp port or make sure the head is covering it up?

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

the head is lined up right. i do not think there was a decomp port on the original cylinder or the airsal 65. no i have not succumbed to do a leak down test yet.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Overpriced Parts /

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Have you done a leak down test? Did you plug the decomp port or make

> sure the head is covering it up?

Through PMs with him it sounds like his 40 year old seals leak air or something really wrong

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Foolish me I assumed everyone replaces seals before kitting a bike... I guess it's easier to swap pipes and carbs and fuck around having a bike that runs for shit all summer.

There is definitely a decomp hole in the 44mm airsal, if you have the wrong head it won't seal up

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Screenshot_20201019-220617__01.jpg

That lil guy, I always screw a set screw in the hole just to plug it up but if you have the right Head it will cover it up, some of the later heads or aftermarket heads won't seal there

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

love that kit. i rocked a 14 bing with a 72 jet also had an estoril (regular , not end bleed) and would hit a torquey 50 all day

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Yeeeeaaaahhh mines like 43 with the proma gp on 16*40, really doesn't feel like it's got 50 in it.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

I put the stock head on there from my 77 maxi e50 with gasket. i'm pretty sure the guy that helped me would not have fucked that up. i understand what ken is saying that i am still way too lean and make my bike even leaner with the bing 15 and 217 and 79 jet compared to the 222/72/stock airbox. i'm trying to come up to speed as quickly as I can on this with the input from you guys who have done it. i am better understanding that something is fucked whereas kens specs of 217 and 78 with mesh aren't working for me.

would a poor seal at the exhaust manifold and intake manifold at the carb be enough to cause this?

i think i can replace the left side seal without dropping the engine and have a seal to put in.

is timing below 15 too retarded?

i really appreciate your help. i lead myself to believe that 44m airsal was plug and play, and so I guess i am lucky it is surfacing problems i would have eventually needed to deal with. i just dont want to blow the fucking thing up. can't afford to.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Overpriced Parts /

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Yeeeeaaaahhh mines like 43 with the proma gp on 16*40, really doesn't

> feel like it's got 50 in it.

Yeah for some reason you like a proma GP Which I had a few and I never liked them they almost felt like they had a restrictor in it but could be just because of the small diameter header maybe,

Almost any 65-70 cc puch kit could go 50mph with a estroil pipe (derestricted Version or do it yourself) with a tuned clutch and correct gearing, In my opinion a estroil is the best mass produced puch pipe for all around daily use,

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Sounds like your crank seals are leaking making the fuel charge too lean.

if you diddnt replace them, ding ding ding! We've got a winner!

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

> Overpriced Parts Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah for some reason you like a proma GP

The main reason is as simple as just having the pedals clear, and I don't like the muffler sticking out the side. I don't like having to run the Magnum length crank because it makes the foot position awkward, and they sound and hold up better than a circuit pipe.

I also think that they perform better on cylinders with less blowdown because the small header. Lately I have been shortening them two or three inches and they rev out a bit better but this kit is ported for 6,000 to maybe 7,500 RPM. You could definitely port it and make it a monster but there are other kits out there if you want to go fast.

I could definitely pull a tooth or two higher and get a higher Max speed but this is built for cruising around my small town going to the farmers market and shit, the speed limit is 30 mph everywhere so it feels really good the way it's currently set up.

Estoril is definitely one of the best pipes period, with a little modding the tomos (or vespa?) Can perform damn near as good as the 200$ + us made pipes. I don't doubt you could port this and make it do 50 but for me the sacrifice isn't worth it.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

> Graham Motzing Wrote:

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Yeeeeaaaahhh mines like 43 with the proma gp on 16*40, really doesn't

> feel like it's got 50 in it.

i did port per one of the review comments on treats "intake lowered 2mm and exhaust widened 1mm." I went more like 1.5 MM wider on exhaust.

the pedal issue does suck, but a mag crank and a two piece shaft collar has the perfect clearance.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Nice, yeah I bet that wakes it up quite a bit!

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

decided to take a look after the bike was repeatedly cutting out while riding. cylinder looks good to my eye, but there must have been a leak that was not showing up on the kick stand carb cleaner test. i wonder if this oil is coming from my decompression hole because its not plugged up and my stock e50 head is not sealing it.

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Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

I bet you didn't re-torque your cylinder studs after a few heat cycles. that is the correct head, it has that little tabby thing where the '4' is. some heads don't have that protrusion and they leak. You should torque them to 7 ft-lbs when you build the engine and you should re-torque them after the first few heat cycles.

there is a lot of burning oil in there, you might be dealing with a misfire/too rich situation, or your clutch side seal is sucking in trans oil.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

If I remember right this bike ran a very oil-heavy mixture for a while

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

it did. put it all back together last night and ran today, but still can't get it to run right. going back to last known good setup i had which was bing clone, 2.22, 66 generic, and the stock airbox and see what that does. i impatiently changed to many variables at the same time and now i'm paying the price.

i've had my carb off so many times in the last two days i can't get it sealed up good.

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

it's been a long road. i finally have a reliable real bing 15mm carb (shelved the clone), 14mm intake, 2.17 atomizer, single embossed needle, 76 jet up an running on my test bike with a stock e50 engine. 74 is the perfect jet with the mesh filter and 14mm intake, but don't have that jet yet, but i am ready to slap this carb on the 65cc airsal bike (which I timed with a gun to 18 degress btdc) with the 76 jet and 15mm intake, but i had to fix my rear wheel as i disintegrated all 13 bearings and a chunk of the cone after not touching the bearings for 43 years (which may explain some of my low end problem)

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

roots to wings /

Replaced difficult to tune and leaky clone with used bing 15mm carb (glad to have found one) on kitted bike (65cc airsal) and finally got it dialed in with 14/40 gearing (for now), stock clutch springs (for now), metal mesh filter, 78 jet, 2.17 atomizer, single embossed needle clipped 3 down from top. Ken Roff was right...

Re: kit trouble - 65cc airsal on an e50

Good to hear! They are such a nice kit when they run right.

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